MARK KENNY, HOST: Welcome to a very special Democracy Sausage episode. I'm Mark Kenny, Director of the Australian Studies Institute at ANU. Do you know that the Albanese Government is now two years old? So joining me to reflect on that milestone is the man himself, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. Welcome to the podcast, PM.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Very good to be with you, Mark.
KENNY: Now, I wonder if we could start with the Budget, because that only happened in less than a fortnight as we speak ago. How did the Budget articulate or frame, describe, whatever the right term is your Government? How does it reflect? What is the core priorities of your Government?
PRIME MINISTER: I think it reflects in terms of values the two things we're trying to achieve. One, to deal with immediate challenges. So in this case, how do we provide costs of living relief without putting pressure on inflation? And secondly, how do we always keep our eye on the longer term? And in that, it was reflected by our Future Made in Australia strategy, which is really a vision for what the economy looks like in the decades ahead. If we get it right now and seize the opportunity, solve the shift in the global economy, how do we position ourselves to take advantage of the opportunities which are there from us?
KENNY: So, this shift in the global economy, obviously, there's a number of things which we're all familiar with, the instability, the wars, and those kinds of things. But also there's this entry into the world in the way that it's happened with China. The response we've seen from the US, the tendency now towards localism and more self reliance, we're seeing messaging along those lines coming from Europe as well, we've got Biden's Inflation Reduction Act, which is a $520 billion re-industrialisation and economic transition, energy transition plan for the US. So, all of these things are adding up to a different kind of world from the one we had, say in the, we saw emerging in the 80s and 90s, a much more kind of, sort of free enterprise market oriented world which was all about unrestricted trade. We're sort of dealing now with almost new realities, in terms of the limits of that. Is that a fair summation of the world we're now looking at?
PRIME MINISTER: We are. We're not looking at the old protectionism, we're looking at the new competition, of how countries position themselves for the shift in the global economy to clean energy, what that means, what that looks like. But also, one of the lessons coming out of the pandemic is the need for more self reliance and resilience, is that there could be trade disruptions in the future, another pandemic, the potential for conflict, which might disrupt trade, or even cybersecurity issues is also very important. So, economies are looking at how they are more resilient. And that's not just the United States, it's Europe, it’s Japan, it's Korea. And they're also looking at how they can take advantage of this significant shift. So what does a clean energy economy look like? Now Australia has benefited from, during the last century, from our abundance of fossil fuels and exporting our resources. At the time, we, of course, saw in the 70s, 80s and 90s, a departure of manufacturing because of labour costs, saw a shift to low wage economies, particularly those in Asia to our north. Now, the economies are changing, labour as a proportion of the costs of production is far less, new technology and its applications are ubiquitous. When there's a breakthrough in one place, it spreads very quickly around the world. And hence, there is less importance to wages and to labour costs as a proportion. Now, that means that we're in a position where we shouldn't try to be in a race to the bottom on wages and conditions. If we get it right, we can be a high wage, high value economy and make things here. And in addition to that, the emergence of green hydrogen in particular where transportation is a difficulty, people will be looking to use the green hydrogen. Firstly, we're in a position to create substantial amounts of it because of the space that we have for solar wind, and for renewable energy to produce hydrogen. But people will be looking more and more for the use of that resource to manufacture goods, be it green steel, green aluminium, and other products closer to where the hydrogen is produced. So all of a sudden, Australia, if we get it right, we are in a position of comparative advantage. And we, if we make the right decisions now, we can be a country that makes things, that is very prosperous out of the shift in the global economy. And that's really what the longer term objectives that have been set up with this Budget are aimed at achieving. But in order to have the licence to do that, you need to look after the challenges which are there, hence why tax cuts for every taxpayer, the Energy Price Relief Plan, the extension of fee-free TAFE, looking after those immediate concerns, were also a major priority of the Budget.
KENNY: Yes, now we had someone on the podcast last week, Elizabeth Ames from the Menzies Australia Institute in London, she's been on the podcast number of times, she's a good observer of politics, both here and in the UK. And one of the things she observed about the Budget was a parallel with what the Sunak Government did last British winter, which was a similar kind of move of bill subsidies for, you know, to reduce the price shock for energy users, households in particular. What she did say, though, which I thought was quite fascinating was that the Government there got very little in the way of political dividend for doing so because there was no real proper comms effort to explain to Britons, that the Government had, in fact reduced their bill. You're going to, you're going to learn that lesson and sort of make voters more aware of the Government's role stepping into cut their bill by 75 bucks a quarter.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, certainly, we will be explaining what the measures in the Budget are. And we'll be doing that, including through this podcast, of course. But also explaining why we've had the shift that we did on tax cuts, in order to benefit everyone. People were going to miss out on any tax cut at all, if they were earning under $45,000 a year. And the big beneficiaries are those people on those middle incomes around $70,000 to $80,000. So, we think in terms of our messaging of this, a tax cut for every taxpayer and energy bill relief for every household is a very clear decision that we have made consistent with our view that we want to represent all Australians, not just some. So, in those areas, they are very broad. But at the same time, we are targeting some assistance such as rent assistance, a 10 per cent increase on top of the 15 per cent last year. These are challenging times. And we need to make sure that people who are under financial pressure be looked after. That was our big priority rather than the politics of the issue. We know that those costs of living pressures are causing hardship, and a Labor Government will always do what I said on election night, which is not leave people behind. But also I guess, the aspirational component, the work that we're doing in higher education and TAFE and skills and that Future Made in Australia agenda as a part of the second component, which is no one held back. That aspiration that Labor must always stand for as well.
KENNY: Right. Speaking of election night, I wonder if I could turn now to what was one of the defining features of your first two years. And that is what you announced on election night, the Uluṟu agenda in full and, of course, leading to the Referendum. I wonder at this two year mark, whether you can reflect on what you've learned about Australian society from your experience with the Voice because I think it's fair to say that you began with a fairly confident prediction that Australians would come to embrace this change and, of course, we know that they rather emphatically did not in the end. Has that taught you anything about where Australian society is?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we know referendums are always hard. And that's the history of them in this country, and none have been successful without bipartisanship. Now, I talk at the beginning of the process, the appointment of Julian Lesser, who'd been, indeed, one of the architects in a legal sense of the whole concept of a constitutionally recognised Voice to Parliament, as both Shadow Attorney General and Shadow Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, that that was a positive sign that the Coalition were open for bipartisanship. That didn't happen. And that meant that it was always very difficult to achieve. The positive of that experience, because I think you've always got to look at the negative and the positive, is the engagement I had with First Nations people during that process was extraordinarily uplifting. I will never forget being with the Indigenous women there at Uluru just days before the vote, and they had a song for me and a ceremony looking at Uluru there, a remarkably spiritual place. And afterwards, the leader, essentially of the cultural performance, gave me a hug, and thanked me for what we were doing in accepting the invitation that was there in the Uluru Statement, to put it to a vote. And I said to her that I thought it was very difficult to achieve. I hope she wasn't disappointed. But I thought it would be very difficult. And she, her eyes lit up, I'll never forget it, and she said, ‘We have had setbacks for many, many years and generations. Thank you for trying.’ And it was a quite emotional moment. The Referendum was very difficult, of course, for people because it was such a modest request, really, but it was one that wasn't accepted by a majority of Australians. And we have to accept that and I had to accept my responsibility as the leader of the country for that. But it doesn't diminish my determination to advance reconciliation. It will, of course, need to take a different path there. But Indigenous people are so generous, really, in the circumstances, in the way that they worked from 2017, but in the lead up to the Uluru Statement, going back many years before then the extensive campaign that they had, and in the end, it had to be put to a vote at some stage, I believe that was the request from Indigenous Australians. I did my best. But that wasn't enough, and we weren't successful.
KENNY: Alright well look I mean, obviously one of the key aspects as you said in that answer was about bipartisanship. It became very clear by November of 2022, that first year, when David Littleproud announced the Opposition position of the Nationals. He's the smaller part of the Coalition. But from that point on, it seemed fairly unlikely that Peter Dutton was going to be able to move in a different direction from the junior Coalition partner, particularly with Nampijinpa Price running that argument very strongly. What have you learned about Peter Dutton's style of leadership, the Opposition that he runs, not just I suppose from the Voice, which he did eventually declare a quite strong oppositional position to it and call it divisive, when in fact, the intention was clearly the opposite. But that argument did seem to get some purchase in the community, but his approach on other areas as well. Do you have respect for Peter Dutton as an Opposition Leader? He seems quite formidable, he may be cynical from your perspective, but he also seems quite effective.
PRIME MINISTER: Peter Dutton is someone who will be defined by what he's against. You do have a relentless negativity with his approach. He's now delivered three Budget Replies without delivering a single costed policy. That stands in stark contrast, I think, with the period in which I was the Opposition Leader where I said I wanted to be called the Labor Leader, I didn't want to be defined by just opposing things. We had fully costed policies in aged care, on the Housing Australia Future Fund, the Rewiring the Nation program, the National Reconstruction Fund, on cheaper child care. We had all of those policies announced during the Budget Replies that I did. But you also had, I was out there giving vision statements about a range of issues, the creation of Jobs and Skills Australia, about social media, about climate change, and a range of other issues. I think it is unfortunate, that more and more, I think Peter Dutton has tried to be a leader who himself has conceded his priority has been keeping his party room together. And that's a party room that has shifted further and further to the right, has become more and more conservative. So, you see no advancement at all on gender issues, including gender representation, you've seen the fuel emission standards that Coalition ministers tried to introduce when they were in Government being portrayed as telling people what they could drive, and back to the old electric vehicles will end the weekend position you've seen on climate change and opposition to renewables. Across the economy you've seen opposition to fairness in industrial relations that we've introduced, and even on the tax cut changes, he said we should go to an election on them, they were they were so bad. So, I think he'll continue to be defined by what he's against. And he is a bit like a Tony Abbott tribute band really, with his team. I think he leads a really ordinary team, also. I think if you have a look at some of the people who are on their frontbench they certainly don't compare with the benefit that I have of an extremely experienced and capable and competent team who work very hard and who are getting things done.
KENNY: Would you consider a reshuffle? I mean, when you made those appointments to the Cabinet to the Frontbench. When you became Prime Minister, obviously, you were making judgments about where people's expertise lie, lay where the portfolios are going and the issues that are recurrent at the time. Two years on, any use in reflecting on whether people are in the right spots?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you know some stage, if we are reelected, or perhaps even before, you make some changes, inevitably, that occurs, but I think the stability of the team has been a real strength. I can't recall any new government having this same ministry in place two years after they were appointed. There's been no trips to Yarralumla, and that's quite remarkable, compared with John Howard lost six or seven Ministers, I think, by this stage, there have been changes in the Hawke Ministry, changes in the Rudd Ministry. Tony Abbott himself didn't make it to two years as Prime Minister, and, you know, had a challenge with an empty chair at one stage and a lot of changes and shifts occurred. So, I think that stability has been a positive. These have been difficult economic times. But I think as we look forward, you have the economic indicators, showing that there's cause for some optimism. We have almost halved inflation, it's down to 3.6 per cent. So, trending towards where we want to get it in that target band of 2 to 3 per cent. We've had 820,000 jobs created since we were elected, the most of any new government. We've got real wages increasing, we've got productivity increasing, business investment increasing, we've got the tax cuts coming in and we've produced back to back Budget surpluses. Now, that is, I think, a strong performance given that these have been very turbulent, global economic times.
KENNY: Let's take a quick break there and be back in a moment.
Welcome back. I'm talking with a reflective Prime Minister Anthony Albanese about his first two years in office and some of the issues that are current at the moment. Now, PM before the break, you made the point about how Peter Dutton wanted to have an election over your changes to Stage Three Tax Cuts. There were a few people in the media who got pretty excited about it as well, it seemed like it was initially reported by many in the media, as you know, a kind of a critical moment over a broken promise. No one seems to be talking about that now. When Julia Gillard was asked during one of the many crises that continued back in those days in the minority Parliament and, and all of that, she was asked at one stage to reflect on the performance of journalism in the Press Gallery and she famously said, don't write crap. I wonder what your, I wonder if you could give us your equivalent of that? What's your take on the performance of media, particularly given, I suppose, what you just gave as a sort of a roll call of things that you say are successful markers of a government.
PRIME MINISTER: Journalism has become more difficult. I think journalists are under enormous pressure to produce things almost instantaneously. So, on the tax cuts, if you go back and had a look at the front pages of the newspapers, over the first 48 hours after we made that change, and I announced it, of course, at the National Press Club, I was fully accountable, I gave media conferences and media appearances, day after day, after that announcement prior to Australia Day. They're not talking about any of those issues now. I think if you showed it some of the journalists, they might be embarrassed by some of the commentary that was that was there. Quite often to some of the articles are essentially about clickbait these days, there are, media organisations are under pressure. So, you have quite dramatic headlines, and then you've read the articles and the articles can be reasonable. But the headlines are there You do have a blurring of news from opinion as well. There are some journalists who are more stenographers in particular the right wing media than actual journalists. They're a cheer squad. Some of the transcripts that you read from Peter Dutton, essentially is him just saying yes, I agree with particular radio commentators or TV commentators. And I think that is unfortunate, that there's pressure on, there's very few journalists who had the opportunity to write long form pieces. I know that when, years ago, of course, people like Alan Ramsay, you know, wrote one column every Saturday, and then had a smaller one on a Wednesday and it was a considered piece. It was research. It was people that had been spoken to. Some journalists do that now too, but it is far less frequent. And I think one of the things that that means is that for some of the publications, you sort of look at a front page and say, well, you know, that'll be gone tomorrow because there isn't substance to it. I'm constantly surprised now by some of the lack of follow up, I can do a press conference, even with the Federal Press Gallery and the journalists from some publications won't follow up on what's been a front page story that you would think was significant. Because it's been placed there. And there's no follow up at all. It's gone in five minutes.
KENNY: So in a sense, I suppose what you're saying is there's kind of a shallower coverage of some of these things. Do you worry that the emergence of partisan media, and there's much more kind of openly partisan media than there used to be, that that has facilitated a kind of a hollowing out of the middle and made it more difficult almost, given social media internet coverage, the sort of temperature of discourse now is so much higher, so much feet more feverish, is it a harder place, a harder policy in which to do that kind of, you know, Orthodox, balanced coverage that involves doing hard work doing a lot of research and being even handed?
PRIME MINISTER: I do worry about it, I worry about the state of political discourse and polarisation, which is there. And that's backed up by social media, which through the use of algorithms, will push people towards more extreme positions that are held by individuals. So, that can create some anger. Because if you look at some of the commentary, they will think that everyone thinks X, whether it be a left or right wing view, and they get a shock that everyone doesn't think the same, but they're channelled into, down that rabbit hole. Whereas previously, I think people shared some of the same experience, they read the same newspapers, they watch the same TV news. And that is being lost.
KENNY: They were at least sharing the same facts to begin with.
PRIME MINISTER: That's right, there's no common, I mean the, we talked about the Referendum, the absurdity of a debate over how long the Uluru Statement from the Heart was.
KENNY: Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: Which arose was just not factual. But people were prepared to write it, because they thought that advanced their cause. And that is disappointing because it disrupts the capacity to have reasoned debate. And that can happen across the board, it becomes more difficult to have any nuance in debate. And it means that major trends are often missed as well. Many of us were somewhat perplexed, at the idea that A Future Made in Australia came about last month, in a speech I gave in Brisbane. I gave a vision statement about as Labor Leader, it was one of the five things that I spoke about constantly as Labor Leader, one of the themes of what we wanted to do to define the Government. Now, we've put in place some of the building blocks of that the creation of Jobs and Skills Australia, the creation, legislating in the National Reconstruction Fund, what we've done on the Hydrogen Headstart Program in last year's Budget, we had done these measures. We've set up the Net Zero Authority, a range of measures. But it's as if that was only cottoned on to when we made the announcements in the lead-up to the Budget that we'd have a Future Made in Australia Act. That is one of the motivations is to make sure that we get that narrative right. But so much of journalism is about the immediate story or news as it's perceived that lasts for just a very short period of time, rather than that debate about, okay, how do we plan for what the economy looks like in 10 years time, let alone 20 years time? How do we make sure we have the skilled workforce to fulfil those jobs? What are the implications for cost of living? How do we have long-term measures to drive down our emissions and to meet those targets? It is a challenge. It's one that I'm sympathetic with many of the journalists who are doing their best, I'm sure, to try to convey serious news and serious information as well to people.
KENNY: Yes, I appreciate that. I mean, that actually, as a long-term practitioner myself, it has worried me for a while that as this sort of tone descends from social media, and that the whole pace of exchange becomes just vituperative and aggressive, that it's almost like there is no centre, you know, if you are not with me, you are against me is the kind of attitude that a lot of people seem to bring to it. So, then we see conscientious journalists known for their balance people like David Crowe and David Spears and Kieran Gilbert, and you know, these kinds of people who were, who were in there doing orthodox, hard work journalism. And when they report on a story, that seen is favourable to one side than the other and more favourable to one side on the other on the basis of the facts of that story. That immediately is used as evidence by people on one side or other to position them and it's like the centre doesn't exist, you have to be a barracker for one lot, or a barracker for the other.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's right it becomes like a football team. Where, you know, I'm a very passionate South Sydney supporter. I hope we score 30 tries and the other side scores none.
KENNY: Well, you got a new coach, I think.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, we do, indeed, more a rugby league God than a rugby league coach is Wayne Bennett, I think. But take, for example, there's been an example in the last couple of weeks that struck me, we have always said that their transition to net zero, of course, requires renewables, and we've got a target of 82 per cent by 2030, in terms of our energy mix. But we've also said that gas has a role to play in firming capacity and stabilising the grid for the current period where it's there. But you would think that, to suggest that somehow is to completely undermine renewables. Well, that's not our argument at all. Our argument is that you do need some firming capacity, we think green hydrogen has a role to play, batteries, all of that, you need storage, you need a serious plan that encourages that investment. Similarly, the Future Made in Australia Plan isn't about government investment replacing private sector investment. It's about how government investment perhaps or loans or government activity, sometimes regulatory measures, can facilitate private sector investment. We're not about replacing the private sector, we're about enhancing how it can operate. And we know that just as government played a role in the development of private sector manufacturing, including in the motor vehicle industry, but so many other areas, in the wake of post-war reconstruction, there's a role for government now. And we're seeing that around the world. But sometimes that's lost. So you have to be pro government or pro private sector, pro renewables, or, like 100 per cent renewables or nothing. And the debate and the need for reform is far more nuanced than that. And that sometimes is a difficult task that we have to sell that message getting across as well. Just like selling the message of, okay, we're providing this cost of living relief, but we're doing it in a way that is not putting pressure on inflation. It's our task to sell that message.
KENNY: Very quickly, I just want to scoot through a couple of other things in the short time we got left. Just on that issue about renewables and the targets for net zero by 2050 and interim targets and the like. We've seen evidence recently that the world is getting to 1.5 degrees plus quicker than had been expected – this has become a bit of a pattern, there's talk of there there being days where there is or period each year where there is literally no polar ice cap in the north. You can sail right across the North Pole. These sorts of things are happening incredibly fast. Is our path towards net zero by 2050 not ambitious enough? Should we be aiming for better than net zero, we're actually taking carbon dioxide out of the community through our use of renewables and mix of the way we do things?
PRIME MINISTER: I think we have got the target right. Australia has a complex task. We’ve been an economy that has been dependent on fossil fuels and has benefited from their use for our economic growth for a long period of time. We need to transition and we need to transition quickly. I'm convinced we can do that. But if you don't bring the community with you on that journey, then what you'll have if someone goes to turn their lights switch on, and the lights don't go on, then you will lose community support for it. So, it's a matter of explaining the science, explaining why dealing with this challenge of climate change is also an opportunity for us. We are so well-positioned. We have all the resources that will power the global economy in this century, copper, nickel, lithium, vanadium, cobalt. We have a an extraordinary opportunity as well as the best solar resources in the world. In some parts of Australia, wind resources that are outstanding. We can produce green hydrogen and use that as an instrument to drive down emissions and to manufacture products, including green metals. And we're located in the part of the world which is the fastest growing in human history just to our north. So, I think that we can get it right and sell the message. But we need to make sure as well that we're realistic, and that the transition is achievable. I'd rather have a target that is not just met but beaten substantially then to just declare, as, the Greens political party can do, you know, I will have people come into my office and say they want 100 per cent renewables immediately. Well, you've got to actually build them. And you have to deal with storage and you have to deal with energy security at the same time.
KENNY: Well, I guess I'll take a target beaten substantially as at least hopeful in that regard. Can I just very quickly talk to you about social media, because you've made some comments recently about access to social media, by kids, when it's appropriate for them, the possibility of there being some sort of age limit on it. There's a pretty ongoing debate about that, how it would work and whether it will be effective and so forth. Is there any thought, are you worried at all about, in a sense, the internet as a window on discourse, in our communities. Everyone agrees kids shouldn't be exposed to all this violence and pornography and these sorts of things. But why is there so much around? I mean, it strikes me that there's some sort of a crisis of values that is being exposed on the internet rather than just a function of the internet itself.
PRIME MINISTER: I think that is an observation that you make there that certainly I've been concerned about, and the impact of the internet and social media on mental health, not just of children, but of adults as well, is something that is having an impact. I have found over recent times, perhaps because of the position I'm in, but the level of hatred which is there and the things that people will say.
KENNY: It's astonishing.
PRIME MINISTER: On the internet, on social media in comment sections, I try not to look anymore. Because it is just I find it quite extraordinary that I can't believe that people would face to face say that to anybody else. And they will make the most –
KENNY: Repugnant, insulting comments. Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: Reprehensible, violent, threatening. It can be quite extraordinary. And that is of real concern. I think that it requires a real debate opening up. And I think the debate about our youngest Australians and access to social media will broaden very quickly into a debate about social media in general, what the impact is, what the impact of the internet is, and to a debate about our society. I wonder, one of the things I've been wondering about is whether people's isolation during COVID, as well, where we lost the capacity for health reasons to have that social interaction, whether that exacerbated some of those issues that can occur with isolation. You know, we need, I think, to find ways in which people can engage with each other. We're social beings. And I think that some of that is lost. One of the concerns that parents will say, is about social media and access to that. But in general, as well, it is just the time that they spend on their devices. And they'll reflect that, for some reasons, we're perhaps a less safe world now as well. Kids used to go down the park, and you would, there was a bit of grass near me, when I was growing up, where people would go there, you know, in the morning of a weekend, and come back home just for lunch for a bit and then go back down again. And you'd be there for three, four hours, and no one would be supervising. You'd just being engaging, just kids being kids. And I think you've seen, from some of the parents I've spoken to they've spoken about the importance of team sport, that social interaction, learning how to win, learning how to lose, learning how to engage with people who you don't know, learning those life skills. And it's not just it's not just young people, I think it's other people as well. There is that need that we have, that we need to make sure that we can fulfil that social interaction, which is positive, rather than some of the downward spirals that we see from people being exposed spending all their time on devices.
KENNY: Absolutely. Final question. You quoted Julia Gillard before in terms of her ‘don't write crap’ quote. John Howard, of course, was famously asked at one stage what his vision was for Australia and I think he said he wanted Australia to be comfortable and relaxed. I wonder at the two year mark, as you sort of prepare into this gathering election year, what your vision, you know, what your version of that question is, the John Howard question.
PRIME MINISTER: That I want Australia to be optimistic, one where we seize the opportunities, not just for our national economy, as if that's abstract from the people in it. But one in which our population has that opportunity to advance a higher quality of life and standard of living, where people have secure work, where they're able to enjoy a prosperous life for themselves and their family. And one where we do reinforce, I guess, the reverse of the dictum from another former leader, of there's no such thing as society. I think very much there is such a thing as society. And it needs to be a healthy society that we build together as well. One that's more cooperative. One that is something I said on election night, was that kindness is a strength not a weakness. And one where we recognise that as well.
KENNY: Thank you, Prime Minister. I think that's the second time Margaret Thatcher has been quoted on that very, very statement in about two weeks. I think Peter Martin may have made that point as well. He at least cited that no such thing society quote. Prime Minister, on the second anniversary of your election and heading into the election year. Good luck for the future. And thanks so much for being with us on Democracy Sausage.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, thanks very much, Mark. It's a great opportunity to talk with you and to the listeners. Perhaps, to go back to the social media and to the impact of the internet, the rise of podcasts, I think, is in part, people wanting to engage and listen to just a conversation without a scripted, you know, point scoring exercise. And I think that's been a fascinating element in the change in the media landscape, that's worth reflecting on as well.
KENNY: You’re right in a very positive one. I really appreciate that. Thanks very much.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Mark.