KAREN MIDDLETON, HOST: Today, I sit down with Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. There’s a sense that the contest is sharpening between him and Peter Dutton, as the Labor Government works on crafting the offer for the next election. That’s campaign language for getting voters to focus on the choice they face. So, how do the resurgent climate wars fit in? What’s behind his condemnation of the Greens over the Gaza protests outside electorate offices, and after last years failed Voice Referendum and separate calls on gambling ad bans, where’s the Government at exactly on reform? Prime Minister, thanks for joining the podcast.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you.
MIDDLETON: Can we start with the return of the climate wars this week? Peter Dutton says there's no point in setting a 2030 emissions reduction target if you're not going to meet it, and that he's now not going to set a 2030 target until after he wins office. Now, you've given us the benefit of your view through the week about what you think of that, but why do you think he is taking this position?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, he leads a divided party, and he's a divisive leader. So, this is an extraordinary position for him to take. We know when he was a member of the Government, that they had 22 different energy policies over those nine years and didn't land one. They've incapable of coming to a position, so now he's lost any pretense of having one, and has said, 'Oh just vote for me, and we'll let you know sometime after the election what our policies are going to be'. But that is really problematic, because if you don't have a 2030 target, you can't be a part of the Paris Agreement on climate change. And he's walking away from Australia being engaged with the international community and joining the ranks of Libya, Yemen and Iran. Now, that's not company that Australia should want to keep.
MIDDLETON: He says, well we know that the Coalition wants to introduce nuclear energy, and we still haven't seen the details of that yet. We also know that a nuclear industry would take at least 15 years to establish and cost more than $8 billion. But the Coalition seems to be arguing that it would bring a dramatic reduction in emissions, and you wouldn't need to swing so hard to renewables in the meantime. Now, are they not just reflecting community anxiety about the renewables rollout, particularly about wind farms and transmission lines?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what they have done for a long period of time is say the climate action has all these things that people should be fearful about. What we know is that climate action is also good economic policy. It's not only important for our environment, it's important as the globe transitions to a clean energy economy. This is a transition that's happening all around the world. What Peter Dutton is doing is saying, 'Well, in 2040 I will have nuclear reactors'. Without saying who will pay for them, without saying where they will be, and without any explanation at all for what happens to the energy grid in the meantime, because coal fired power stations are closing, they continued to close on their watch, and you need renewables which are firmed up. And the CSIRO found that renewables with firming is eight times cheaper than any nuclear reactor would be. That $8 billion figure is for a single reactor a very, perhaps even conservative estimate, so I think it could be much more than that. We know that that's the case globally, is that there's been massive cost blowouts, and it is just not a serious policy. And if you don't have a serious policy on energy and on climate change, then you can't be taken seriously as the alternative Prime Minister of Australia.
MIDDLETON: Well, if it's not a serious policy, what's it about then?
PRIME MINISTER: It's about his own internals. The same thing that it was about with the 22 different policies that they couldn't land when they were in Government. They actually had two party room decisions to have what was known as the NEG energy guarantee and didn't pursue it. They lost leaders in Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull and then Scott Morrison, without ever having a policy landed on energy. And that's why we continue to see coal fired power stations close and not have the energy grid fixed up. That's why we had the Rewiring the Nation program, which is about making sure that renewables can be connected up to the grid. They had the Snowy Mountains Scheme, the expansion with our Snowy 2.0 without ever having a plan to connect it up with the grid. Now that makes no sense whatsoever, and Peter Dutton has just continued in Opposition. He's wasted the first two years without having a single fully costed policy announced in any Budget Reply, and with just these, these thought bubbles of, 'Oh, well, we'll go down the nuclear road without any explanation of any detail'. And it's simply not really an alternative policy. It's just an attempt to create fear and to continue to dissemble really about what's needed to address the challenge of climate change.
MIDDLETON: Is he creating fear, or is he reflecting fear? Like in some parts of the community, we know there's anxiety about, particularly about wind farms, about transition lines coming across properties. We hear that from regional Australia in particular, but not only from there. Does that suggest that you're not addressing those concerns more directly, directly enough?
PRIME MINISTER: We certainly need to make sure that the community comes with us on the journey of addressing climate change, and that means proper community consultation. But if people are, we know in some areas have been, expressed concern about a solar farm or a wind farm. I don't see people out there in the communities having demonstrations saying, what do we want? A nuclear reactor. When do we want it? Now. The concern which is there is real, the fact that he won't go forward and say where his nuclear reactors are proposed to go, and of course, there's no financing for these we need to make sure that communities are properly consulted. We need to make sure, like with any infrastructure project, that there is that appropriate level of community consultation. But we know as well that for a whole range of communities, I've visited, places in Far North Queensland, which have the big Kennedy and little Kennedy wind projects. That had Kidston, which is hydro in an old abandoned mine, with significant large scale solar farms there, that are bringing prosperity to communities like Hughenden in Queensland, gaining considerable benefit. There we have the CopperString project, is about making sure that those renewables can be connected to the grid between Mount Isa and Townsville. And if we get this right, and we do need to get it right, the benefit for jobs and for regional economic development are substantial. And my vision for Australia is one where you have solar and renewables creating green hydrogen, which is then used to power advanced manufacturing to produce green steel, green aluminium. This is where Australia can have an extraordinary comparative advantage. We can be a renewable energy superpower for the world. And we cannot just create renewable energy for us, but the potential to export renewable energy to places like Singapore and Indonesia is substantial as well.
MIDDLETON: But these community anxieties are one of the reasons that the renewables rollout is a bit behind schedule. It's not, it's not where you hoped it to be. We've heard from the likes of Tony Wood, from the Grattan Institute this week that you may very much struggle to meet your 2030 target of a reduction of 43 per cent on 2005 levels because the rollout isn't fast enough.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will meet it. And the Climate Change Authority hands down information on an annual basis of where we're up to. Last December, it found that we're on track for 42 per cent. Now, yes, that's not 43 it's one less. But since then, we've announced further policies, such as production tax credits for critical minerals, for green hydrogen that will also assist with the emissions reduction. We've announced, as well, vehicle standards, fuel standards, that will be important as well. This requires a whole of government approach, but a whole of society approach as well, which is why the business community have been so strong in saying they want that investment certainty. And Peter Dutton's plan is to rip all of that up, start again, go back to the climate wars that were really a civil war within the Liberal and National parties. And we're seeing that with already calls for after his abandonment of the 2030 target, calls to abandon net zero by 2050 as well.
MIDDLETON: Your 2030 target also involves getting to 80 per cent of renewable energy by 2030. Now, you mentioned the Climate Change Authority, and in that, the last update we had from them, they said, and I quote, achieving the 82 per cent renewable energy target is going to be crucial for Australia's ability to meet the 43 per cent emissions reduction target. This will require some heavy lifting. So, while it says on paper you're on track to reach 42 per cent, it says that target is crucial.
PRIME MINISTER: It is crucial.
MIDDLETON: How are you going to get to 82 per cent in five years?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's what we're doing. We've had in the last two years, you've had record numbers of solar panels put on roofs, and just as it makes sense for a household, but if you take that as an economy, why do people put solar panels on roofs? Now, it might be because of their social obligation that they feel to reduce emissions and to protect the environment, but it's also because it makes economic sense, because once that capital investment is made over a period of time, it reduces the cost of energy that they pay over the life, compared with if they didn't have solar panels on their roofs. That's why people get batteries as well, to have that storage. Now, just as that makes sense for a household, for an economy, that makes sense as well, which is why you have major companies like Rio Tinto and others just signed the largest ever renewable energy deal up there in Gladstone in Central Queensland. They produce aluminium there, and as well as other products at the four facilities they have there. You're seeing considerable investment. You're seeing at Liddell Power Station, more jobs will be created there. That's run by Origin now, but they have brought in a deal with SunDrive, the manufacturing of solar panels that will make an enormous difference. We know that it's not easy. That's the point of a target. A target is to have ambition and to strive to meet that target, and we can do it. One of the big divides in Australian politics is my Government, that's determined to be optimistic, that's determined to be positive about our place in the world, and Peter Dutton, who just talks Australia down, is negative all the time and has nothing positive to offer.
MIDDLETON: I do want to come to that context. But before we leave this issue, can we just talk about the politics of this, the climate issue at the moment, and you know, we talked about the anxiety and community in some areas. But then, of course, there are people, including people in your own Party, and supporters of the Labor Party, who feel angry and disappointed that you're not doing more to phase out fossil fuels more quickly. How are you managing those tensions? Because, particularly in relation to gas, and we can come to gas, people are disappointed that you're not moving faster, and then you've got others who say it's too fast.
PRIME MINISTER: No, well, that's not right. My Party is very united around our plans, we know that there's a role for gas in firming up renewables. It's not either or, that's how you get that investment in renewables. Rio Tinto wouldn't have had the most significant deal on renewables without being certain that they were going to have that firming capacity. That is what has given it the confidence, because in many production processes, take for example, aluminium as one. Tomago smelters the same. You can't just turn off or turn on. There has to be 24-hour production because of how the machinery works. Otherwise, it takes a long time to get back on and the costs are enormous. That's part of those processes. So my Government, there'll always be people who say, well you should move to 100 per cent renewables by next week. But what people need to know is that we need to bring the community with us. We need stability. We need to make sure that when people go home at night, they flick a switch, the light will go on. If that doesn't occur, then you will have an undermining of the commitment to act on climate change. And we can do that. We can deliver that just as action on climate change will result in more jobs, not less, particularly in regional communities, and more economic growth.
MIDDLETON: In terms of gas, and to the point about there being some critics in the wider Labor movement and the Labor Party supporters, there is concern among parts of the Labor Party that your gas strategy had the language that gas would remain a part of the energy mix to 2050, and beyond, and concern about the possibility of opening new gas fields. Now last week, Wayne Swan, your own National Party President, echoed some of those concerns. He said he sympathised with the concerns of activists in the Labor Party about that. What do you say to those people who think your actions are not matching the language?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they are absolutely matching the language. We have a commitment to transition our economy. We need to make sure that there's certainty in how that occurs, and we know that firming, whether it be batteries, whether it be gas, whether it be some other forms as well, really important for that transition to occur, and you need to have realistic plans that go forward. That's precisely what we have done. And if you look at how we're regarded around the world, Australia was pariahs when it came to international climate conferences and the international community. We've turned that around. We are having a serious and ambitious policy. I go back to your previous quotes that you asked in this interview, where you said that it was an ambitious, difficult to achieve target. That hasn't stopped us from making sure that not only have we set those targets, but we're determined to meet them. And in order to do that, it requires a hardheaded analysis of how we get there. That's precisely what we have done. And people who've examined this, including the Climate Change Authority and others as well, are doing that. We've established the Net Zero Economy Authority as well, where that is designed to make sure that these regional communities that will be impacted by the transition continue to have jobs and new industries are created. That's what we're determined to do in places like the Hunter Valley.
MIDDLETON: Before we move on to other things. Can I just ask you to the point about targets you've got to have, you've got to have your 2035 target set by early next year. The three big states and the eastern states have got targets of at least a 70 per cent cut by 2035. The climate, I think the Climate Change Authorities assessment was we could achieve 65 to 75 per cent nationally, you're going to have to set it at least that level. Are you not? Isn't there? To your point about the world's view, isn't the international expectation going to be that we will set a target at least that high?
PRIME MINISTER: No what we'll do is have a proper analysis, take proper advice by the Climate Change Authority and make an appropriate decision based upon that advice, based upon the science, based upon what we can achieve. And that's what we did with the 43 per cent target. That's what we did by net zero. How do we get to net zero by 2050? And we’ll do they at the appropriate time?
MIDDLETON: Can I move on to the protests at electorate offices and the Parliament incident, exchange in the Parliament of last week. You accused the Greens of fuelling those protests, and we've seen, as you've described it staff being harassed, constituents blocked from going in and out, windows smashed, paint splashed around. Now, the Greens say they only encourage peaceful protest, and of course, people are protesting because there's genuine distress and anger at what's happening in the Middle East. But there is also a political dimension to all of this. The Greens are after seats that you hold, particularly in Victoria, but not only there, so how much of that exchange last week and this debate is actually about party politics, and how much of it is the substance of the issue?
PRIME MINISTER: It was about social cohesion, and I certainly understand that people, particularly those with relatives in either Israel or in the Occupied Palestinian Territories in Gaza or in the West Bank, are distressed and traumatised at the moment. This is a difficult time. After the atrocities of October 7 and then the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. We have voted for ceasefire at the United Nations. We've issued, I've issued joint statements with the Prime Minister of Canada and New Zealand, calling for ceasefire, calling for those immediate issues to be addressed, calling for the release of hostages, but also calling for a two-state solution to be advanced, where Palestinians and Israelis can both live with security and stability and prosperity. That is important, what we have had though, with some of the protests is misinformation. Is activity that undermines, as I said in Parliament last week, undermines the legitimate cause of Palestinian statehood, that legitimate aspiration that Palestinians have, something that I support, and have supported my entire political life. That requires a two state solution, not one state, because the idea of one state would mean either Israel disappearing or the Palestinians being removed from Gaza and West Bank. The only peaceful resolution to that conflict requires two states as something of support at the basis, negotiations are there, we know what they are. 1967 borders. They are an end to settlements. They are making sure that there's security in terms of borders. What we've had is misinformation and people who might be critical of the actions of the Netanyahu Government, somehow thinking that Australia's a participant in this conflict. We are not. We have provided substantial funding for humanitarian aid in Gaza, we've called for ceasefires and we've called for a long-term political settlement.
MIDDLETON: Some of the people who are protesting are using the language of genocide, they say your language should be stronger, you're not doing enough as the Australian Government, what do you say when they say that to you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's not what they say. They blame us, and that is an abrogation when you, it is refusing to give any agency to the Israeli Government, and is completely counterproductive, and it's just untrue. We are not participants. For example, we do not provide, and have not provided any ammunition or weapons to Israel. There is deliberate misinformation put out there by some of the Greens Party members, and that is really disappointing, because at a time where there is a great deal of trauma in the community, I understand that, the attempt to weaponise these issues for party political purposes is, in my view, entirely inappropriate. The stopping of people from getting advice about Medicare or about social security, vulnerable people turn up to electorate officers, the advocacy of blockading of those offices is entirely unacceptable. And what's more is the painting of offices, the use of symbols across offices, including mine, with symbols that are used by Hamas.
MIDDLETON: The red triangle, the inverted red triangle.
PRIME MINISTER: A terrorist organisation that is about targeting in a violent way, is the way that Hamas used that symbol is, in my view, something I haven't seen in my entire time in politics. And people, we have attempted to raise this time and time again with the leadership. It's extraordinary that you have had Senators and Members of Parliament outside other members offices and involved in their electorate. And electorate offices don't do the task of political decision making. What they do is provide help for vulnerable people who need help and assistance with government, including, it must be said, on migration issues, including issues of providing support for people who come into my office and other offices.
MIDDLETON: Do you accept that they're protesting because they feel that you're falling short? You're not representing their concerns well enough.
PRIME MINISTER: No, Mehreen Faruqi and people turning up, to outside my office and promoting a blockading there's no discourse going on here. I've been, I've met with people from across the political spectrum on these issues. I understand that people are traumatised. I've met with Palestinian groups as well as Israeli groups here in Australia. I do that regularly. The information which is being put out is just simply wrong. So that, for example, there's a question asked in Parliament last week about Elbit, an organisation that's an Israeli organisation, saying somehow that we were providing funding for them. That is just not true. What has happened is the Commonwealth have a contract with Hanwha, they're a Korean company to produce infantry fighting vehicles here in Australia, and that company have a subcontract with Elbit to build the turrets for those vehicles here in Australia. It has nothing to do with what is going on in Gaza. The people who are promoting that know that that is the case, but they continue to make these assertions and that, at a time like this, is one where we need to try to promote community cohesion. It is not a time to look to separate people and to engage in disinformation deliberately out there.
MIDDLETON: We could talk more about that, but there are some other things I want to ask you about, and one of them is the Voice and the wash up of that. It's eight months since the Referendum, there has really been a sense of a bit of a leadership vacuum on the whole Indigenous issue since then. You said you would consult, the Government would consult. People I think want to know what's next? Will some kind of a Voice ever occur outside of the proposal to enshrine in the Constitution? What's your next step in terms of the Uluru Statement?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we accept the result of the Referendum. That's the first thing in democracy.
MIDDLETON: Sure, we know that it’s about looking forward.
PRIME MINISTER: In a democracy you have to do that. I campaigned very strongly for it. Indigenous Australians asked to be recognised in the Constitution, and they came up with, through the First Nations Constitutional Convention, the form that they wanted that representation to take. What we have done since is to come up with a series of practical policies to close the gap. We've done that in consultation with Indigenous Australians. Programs that we had with $4 billion for remote and social community housing in the Northern Territory. The plans that we put in place as well for additional funding in education. The support that we've had for domestic violence programs. The replacing of the employment programs that were essentially make work programs with real jobs, with real funding, with real training involved. That we included as part of our Closing the Gap announcements, all of those measures, we have been putting in place, record funding. We'll continue to engage, through Linda Burney, particularly the Minister, and we continue to, I continue to meet with Indigenous groups. So, the Victorian representatives will be here in a couple of weeks' time in Canberra. I'll meet with them again. They've been brought by Senator Jana Stewart here, and we continue to engage through the various forums that are there amongst Indigenous communities.
MIDDLETON: But what about the Makarrata? What about you know, there was money in the Budget last year for that, for truth telling, for treaty process. We know that's undergoing underway at the state level, but what are you going to do about the rest of the Uluru Statement?
PRIME MINISTER: Well treaty process is undergoing at the various states and that's appropriate. With regard to Makarrata, we're continuing to consult on those issues. Indigenous leaders, of course, were very disappointed by the Referendum result. I'll attend Garma once again this year and sit down with people and talk about a way forward. One of the things that we wanted to do, the whole point of the Voice was listening to people in communities, rather than people in Canberra making decisions going forward, and that's what we've been doing.
MIDDLETON: But I think a lot of people who voted no still wanted, believed in some kind of a Voice, they just didn't like the model, and there's been a sense that, you know, nothing has happened since then. Do you accept there's been a vacuum, a sense that there hasn't been forward motion on that?
PRIME MINISTER: We said before the Referendum that this was an opportunity to advance reconciliation. That was very clear. This was an opportunity that wasn't something that came about because of the changing government. This is something that, the Uluru Statement from the Heart came about in 2017 after at least five years of community consultation. So of course, as we said, it would, if it wasn't successful, it wouldn't be just replaced by something the next week or the next month. That is what we said would occur, and that is what Indigenous Australians who supported the Referendum so strongly said as well. That this was an opportunity which unfortunately wasn't supported by a majority of the Australian people, but we accept that outcome.
MIDDLETON: Early in this conversation, you talked about the context between you and Peter Dutton. And I don't want to finish up before we talk about that, he's crafting an argument around him being strong and you being, I think he's used the phrase weak and indecisive. He says the Prime Minister can talk big, but he never delivers. What do you make of that characterisation of you, and how are you defining the contest between the two of you?
PRIME MINISTER: That what he's trying to do, is to turn his own weakness into something other than what it is. This is a guy who has a record of supporting austerity. We know when he was Health Minister. I tried to introduce a tax on visiting the GP, a cost on visiting the hospital, increasing pharmaceutical costs and and ripped $50 billion out of the health system. And someone who on bringing Australians together, has always been a divisive figure. He is perhaps the most divisive figure that we've seen in Australian politics for a long period of time. Certainly, it might be a contest between him and Tony Abbott. What I am doing is building a strong economy. We'll go to the next election with plans for a second term, but we will be able to say that we've done what we said we would. We have wages growing. We'll have a tax cut for every taxpayer, not just some, on July 1. We're providing energy price relief. We've reduced the cost of child care, of pharmaceuticals. We have an economy that continues to grow. We've created 820,000 jobs. And then on the social policy agenda, we had the gender pay gap at a record low. We've introduced 10 days paid domestic and family violence leave, we're addressing a range of issues to lift up women as gender equality being a major part of my Government's approach. Not surprising, given that we have a majority of women in our Government Caucus room. And on the environment, of course, we are dealing with climate change. We're addressing environmental issues, including biodiversity, including the Murray Darling Basin. But we're also repairing our relationships with the world, with the region, with the Pacific Islands. We have the Chinese Premier visiting this coming weekend. We've repaired that relationship, but also with our traditional allies, like France, as well as the relationships with the US and the UK and the relationships in our region through ASEAN. We are setting Australia up for, to be very successful in the decades ahead. Peter Dutton just has a plan to divide and to oppose and has nothing positive to offer.
MIDDLETON: On the China point, seeing as you brought it up, but you said when you announced Premier Li's visit formally that you would be asserting Australia's values, but our values are so different from China's. But in the end, doesn't that just become a transactional relationship based on self interest?
PRIME MINISTER: No, not at all. You can accept that, just like you can accept an individual has differences, but have respect for those differences. Acknowledge that they're there. We do have different values. We're a democratic nation, they're not. We value human rights. We have a different set of criteria from their political system. But we need to engage, and that is really important, they will continue to grow. We need to acknowledge the achievement of China as well in lifting so many people out of poverty. Over recent decades, there's been the extraordinary period of economic growth in China. China's the destination for one in every $4 worth of our exports, they're a major trading partner. At the same size as our second, third and fourth put together. And so that's an important relationship for us, but we need to be able to express our differences clearly, and we do that. We don't shy away from those differences and they, I'm sure, won't shy away from what they see as things that they don't support about Australian society or Australian government policy. They would prefer, I'm sure, that we not be engaged with AUKUS, but we'll assert our national interest. That's my job as Australia's Prime Minister.
MIDDLETON: Before I let you go, you've gave us a list before of the things that you've done. One of the things you haven't done yet is gambling reform. Now, your friend, the late Peta Murphy, friend and colleague she made that her legacy, she chaired an inquiry. She called for a number of measures on gambling. We really haven't seen substantial progress on that. When are we going to hear something from you on that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we have seen some substantial progress. We launched BetStop, which is a national self-exclusion register. We implemented new taglines that people will hear on the ads instead of just gamble responsibly. We agreed with states and territories on minimum classification for video games with gambling like content.
MIDDLETON: But that inquiry called for a total ban on online gambling ads within three years, we haven't heard anything much about that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well we legislated a ban on the use of credit cards for gambling. What people would be aware for those people listening to this podcast on their devices, that's not as simple. When it comes to the operation of the internet with devices that can be registered overseas, that therefore aren't accountable. There's a whole lot of programs that people have. A number of these listeners will be listing on devices with VPNs registered somewhere else. So, we need to be careful that we deal with all of the consequences, that what we don't do is just come up with a policy that just sees things go offshore and therefore no accountability, no tax collected. So we need to make sure we get it right, and that's one of the things that my Government has been doing, is making sure that we consult and that we do get it right. Because unfortunately, if it was just really simple, I think it would have happened a long time ago, perhaps, but these things aren't when it comes to proper regulation. We've made a range of changes, some of those that I went through, you know, including mandating customer pre-verification for all new online wagering accounts. You know, it is one thing about advertising, which the report went to. But the truth is that a whole lot of people who see ads for betting see it on the devices that they listen to this podcast on, not on watching free to air TV on a Friday night watching the AFL or rugby league.
MIDDLETON: What I do get from the list of things you gave me before and from some of the language you've heard lately, not least I think you told your Party Room a couple of weeks ago, the Cabinet was now focused on crafting the offer that for the second term. That does tell me that the contest is sharpening towards an election that we're heading towards a campaign. Is the contest sharpening? Are we within sight of another contest at the polls? Now, what's that about that language?
PRIME MINISTER: We have three year terms in Australia. That's one year shorter than I would like, but it means that people...
MIDDLETON: You could do something about that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you need a referendum.
MIDDLETON: Not inclined to do another one of those.
PRIME MINISTER: It's been tried twice as well, and like most referendums in this country, has not been successful.
MIDDLETON: I thank you for making time to talk to us today about a range of things on a busy schedule. So, thanks, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Karen.