CLAIRE KIMBALL, HOST: Prime Minister, thank you so much for being here with us.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Great to be here.
KIMBALL: It's your first podcast interview in a run of interviews, no doubt, that you'll do as we head into an election campaign at some point this year. Why do it?
PRIME MINISTER: It's a format where you're not under pressure to give a grab or to stick to a script. So I quite like it, because it's real.
KATE WATSON, HOST: Let's talk about the big stuff then. We're going to start really big and broad first. One of the things we obviously did ahead of this conversation is went back and read your maiden speech, nearly 30 years ago now, in fact, you joined the parliament in 1996.
PRIME MINISTER: I was elected on my 33rd birthday, on the second of March 1996.
WATSON: A very high achiever from a very young age, there we go, we got that in. You described yourself in that maiden speech as a democratic socialist. And more recently, I've heard you say a social democrat, same thing. I think it's really important to explain to people what that actually is to you, because I think we throw these words around and these phrases around, but what is it? What is it to be a democratic socialist?
PRIME MINISTER: What it means to be a member of the Labor Party, something I was drawn to, I say that I was raised with three great faiths, the Labor Party, the Catholic Church and South Sydney Rugby League Football Club, by my mum. And that represents, I guess, on the left-right spectrum, some of it is a bit of nonsense, but it means, in general, that your starting point is you recognise that society is more than just individuals, that there is collective responsibility, if you like. And so that is a bit of a starting point, that you think that society is also judged by how it looks after the most vulnerable and provides that opportunity, and that government has a role in that. If you put the sort of, at an extreme, on the left spectrum, government has a role to look after people, on the right spectrum, if government just gets out of the way and disappears, then people will be better off. Now, I tend towards government does have a role in looking after people and in looking after shaping the economy as well where market failure occurs.
WATSON: I think it's an important distinction, though, because when people are trying to make up their mind, there has been a lot said in the last sort of decade or so about the major parties being a bit hard to decipher as far as their differences. We've discussed this in our personal view, is actually with you as Prime Minister and Peter Dutton as Opposition Leader. That is becoming more and more clear for people, but having you lay that out, I think really helps. And I'd love if you could give us sort of one example of a policy, something you're proud of that really demonstrates those social democrat values that you have.
PRIME MINISTER: Action on climate change. If you just leave it up to the market, let the market rip, you won't get the sort of interventions that we've seen, that transition that you need, but to do it in a pragmatic way as well. It's not about public sector investment crowding out private sector engagement. It's about, how does government policy, public sector engagement, facilitate that private capital to be used as well, so things like that. We've set up, to give an example, the National Reconstruction Fund. $15 billion for startups, for companies to get loans or some form of support in order to then be able to thrive, to continue to exist, you know, on their own feet, but often you need that support. I think, climate change, I think, is real. The science tells us that, and we need to act on it, and it does require a government to play a role.
KIMBALL: So while we're here, one of your more famous quotes was off the back of that period of leadership turmoil within the Labor Party, the very famous Rudd-Gillard-Rudd era. You did a press conference at that time, and you got quite upset and said that the Labor Party, you know, that you liked fighting Tories, it should be doing that rather than fighting itself. What did you mean? And what are you most worried about?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, it means, I think, not giving up gains that have been made. So I meet, for example, with the crossbenchers everyone from, talk about ideological spectrum, from Bob Katter to Zali Steggall to all of them, Andrew Wilkie, I meet with them during every parliamentary session. So you know, at least once every two months, and just hear their concerns, respond where there's agreement. Labor has a majority in the House of Reps. We have 78 seats out of 151 so we don't need to do that. We do that out of respect for the parliament, just like my door’s open to Liberal and National Party members as well. Now that stands in stark contrast, I think, to some members of the Opposition who yell at, particularly the, largely women from the crossbench, who are up in that corner where the crossbench sit, and they yell abuse at them, and I'm not sure that's a very smart strategy going forward. It's a matter to them. But I think treating people with respect is -
WATSON: Does it actually help you get things through the parliament, though?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, it does.
WATSON: Does it? I mean, there have been things that haven't, you haven't been able to go to negotiate through the parliament, and to be honest, I mean, we kind of don't want to get into the issues in that way. But I guess the other point is, this is all well and good while the major parties have support. Support is waning for these for major parties, right?
PRIME MINISTER: It is.
WATSON: So we have people listening to this that are going to vote for the Greens, that are going to go vote for One Nation, that are going to vote for an independent in their seat. I'm really curious, given one third of the electorate is not going to vote for you or Peter Dutton or your parties, how do you appeal? How are you going to appeal to those people? Because appealing to the colleagues and to the parliament is one thing, but appealing to the public is a whole other game.
PRIME MINISTER: With the clear vision. I think only Labor can form government in our own right after the next election.
WATSON: No chance of a majority government for Peter Dutton?
PRIME MINISTER: Well they're a coalition for a start, between the Liberals and the Nationals, and don't often agree with each other. They can't appoint a Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, it has been vacant now for six weeks because they can't even get agreement within and I can't see any path for Peter Dutton and the Nationals for that matter, to get to 76. So I think our pitch, if you like, is that we've dealt with immediate challenges that have been to us, cost of living pressures, cheaper medicines, tax cuts for all, all the changes that we've made, but we've also got our eye on the future, on the horizon. So action on climate change is an opportunity for Australia. The work that we're doing in childcare, to move towards universal provision of affordable childcare is a really important change for the country. And that only government can make that decision. To go back to the sort of spectrum, if you like, one area where perhaps it's a false distinction, is that the Coalition and Labor are both political movements that seek government, that seek power in order to use it to implement their vision. And I think that's a distinction that I have between being a member of a major political party and being an independent where you can wait for decisions to be made and then decide whether you support them or not, or to protest against them or not, but you can't actually, it's a cabinet room is where decisions can be made to really change the country. And I'm in politics to make a difference in a permanent way. I want greater gender equity. I want greater fairness. I want a stronger economy. I want more jobs. And one of the things we've been able to do in these difficult global inflation times is to get inflation down to 2 per cent without doing what some economists want us to do, which is, ‘don't worry, just put people on the scrap heap, you need more unemployed people in order to lower inflation.’ Well, we haven't done that. We've got lower inflation, higher wages and creating 1.1 million jobs.
KIMBALL: We’re all about the trimmed mean here at The Squiz. We’ve done a whole podcast on it.
WATSON: I reckon there are people listening who vote Labor and want to vote Labor again, who are concerned about you dealing with the Greens, though, I think when we're looking at that spectrum, because that's going to be a factor for you, potentially, it already is a factor. Let's say the Liberals pick up some Teal seats, and those, they're less of a factor. Let's just say that's the case.
PRIME MINISTER: They're trying very hard to not pick up any Teal seats, I've got to say.
WATSON: I’m in one, I have views, but I won't tell you what they are.
PRIME MINISTER: I think that people who voted for Teal, or independent as they described, I can't see any policies that Peter Dutton has put forward that will cause people to go, ‘oh no, they've got the message.’
WATSON: But what are the Greens? I mean, traditionally, I mean, they have been a party that's attracted to vote because of all the things you've just mentioned, which is, you know, climate, better funding for things like childcare, that kind of thing, but they, there isn't a conversation about the Greens becoming more extreme, and that's tricky.
KIMBALL: And the people that are talking to you about this, the concern being that they'll pull your government further to the left?
WATSON: I just want to give you an opportunity to address that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there'll be no deal with the Greens under any circumstances. I've made that very clear. And indeed, in 2013 when I became Deputy Prime Minister, I remember the conversation that they had on that evening where the Greens leaders came in and basically said, you know, ‘what's in it for us, because there could be a confidence vote on the floor of the parliament.’ And I said, ‘well, nothing. That's a matter for you. If you want to vote for Tony Abbott tomorrow rather than Kevin Rudd, that's a matter for you. Good luck with that.’ So, you know, I think that it is correct to say the Greens have lost their way. They are no longer a party primarily concerned with the environment. If you look at what they're concerned about, they've spoken more about the Middle East than anything else. And I and in my electorate of Grayndler have, of course, campaigned against the Greens Political Party my entire political career. So I support Labor values, which are different from the values of the Greens Political Party, and even where some of their rhetoric about support for public education or childcare, the difference is the Greens never have to add anything up. There's no fiscal responsibility at all. And at the end of the day, you actually do need things to add up. And one of the things I'm proud of is that we produced not one, but two Budget surpluses, unlike what had occurred for a long period of time. It's 20 years since that has occurred.
WATSON: I think we should ask, I mean, I'm quite sympathetic to you, in the sense of it's really hard to have a position on things these days, without offending people and without getting very swift backlash, without getting, being brave in a public for format is really difficult. I don't give you any, that is your job, so too bad you have to do that.
PRIME MINISTER: Suck it up is what you’re saying.
WATSON: It's one thing for a podcaster to think about how they might offend a portion of the audience, of course, that's part of your job. But do you grapple with that? Like, how do you, every day you have you are going to say something that someone is not going to be happy about. How do you come to that?
PRIME MINISTER: By standing up for your values.
WATSON: What if you don't know what you think?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, then you give it proper consideration. And one of the things that I've done as well is to lead a proper cabinet government and to listen to colleagues who are responsible for particular policy areas, but also I reach out to a range of people. I had a discussion this morning with a former senior Liberal minister in the former government. And I take calls, I engage with people in a constructive way, because I recognize that no one has all the answers, and part of what you have to do is to recognize what you do know and what you don't know.
KIMBALL: It's definitely come at a cost, though, hasn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Sure, but it's appropriate to do so. But you also, if you look at something like the referendum on constitutional recognition, that was, I remember there was, Indigenous leaders were in the room next to the Prime Minister's Office and saying to them, ‘there's no guarantee here at all, referendums are hard in Australia, we know that, that’s the history of them,’ and all of them saying, ‘you know, I won't be around, we've got to give Australians their say.’ As much as that was a disappointing result, clearly, from my perspective, it's one I respect, but it's one also that I don't regret having a crack.
WATSON: I take your point, but I'm interested in those quick decisions where something happens you didn't expect, and you as the Prime Minister need to lead the country in the next few hours.
PRIME MINISTER: And we do.
WATSON: How do you very quickly come to, what do you fall back on? Is it gut? Is it like, is it that? Is it those democratic, social values? How do you know straight away, this is what I've got to do, and do you think you are doing that?
PRIME MINISTER: Experience helps, being around a long period of time, sometimes you've got to make decisions on the floor of the parliament, whether you're voting for amendments, what you're doing. Being Leader of the House in a minority parliament in particular, is pretty good training. I did that for, Manager of Opposition Business or Leader of the House, for a decade, and that experience, I think, has served me well.
KIMBALL: This podcast is going out on a show that we call News Club, and we wanted to ask you about the news. What news do you consume? What are your sources?
PRIME MINISTER: I get, the first thing we get early in the morning -
WATSON: Do you still get the clips?
PRIME MINISTER: We do get the clips in various forms, broken up.
WATSON: I just have to print them off. Claire would send them to me, and I'd have to I'd have to print them off and run them up to the back in the day. You don't print them off anymore do you?
PRIME MINISTER: Back in the day I remember getting them, 100 pages, and there was always a fight over whether the Opposition got access to the clips, which I never did as a shadow minister. I look at the front pages come through electronically. I look at the front pages of the newspaper, and then I look at, there's a summary of that 6am news bulletins. So they’re the first two things I probably look at.
WATSON: From all the major networks?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, so radio and TV, and then I will deep dive into things that strike me, my interest, or things I've got to do. This morning, I did an interview on ABC AM, so I will get as well from my team, my hard working team, will send me what the issues of the day are and a bit of a summary of it.
WATSON: Do you get on the Instagram and scroll?
PRIME MINISTER: I do sometimes, but it's usually sport things pop up.
WATSON: I was going to say it’s probably Souths content. Is it?
PRIME MINISTER: Sports things exactly.
KIMBALL: And dog related content.
PRIME MINISTER: And dog related content, they're the big two that pop up all the time.
WATSON: I’m interested in if the Prime Minister gets stuck in the doom scroll, does that happen to you?
KIMBALL: An hour just evaporates.
PRIME MINISTER: No, I try not to, because I think looking at your device at night, does disrupt your sleep. So I've read enough to know that that's the case.
KIMBALL: Are you a news junkie? Do you love the news cycle? And get right into the depths of journalism and who's saying what and why and all of that? There's a real rabbit hole that you can actually fall into, I think, when you're associated with politics to get right into the game of that.
PRIME MINISTER: To be honest, when Prime Ministers would say to me, as Kevin and Julia did, ‘I don't have time to look at the detail of the news,’ I would think rather skeptically at them saying that, but it's true. I just don't have time to do that.
KIMBALL: You’ve just broken the hearts of the whole Press Gallery.
PRIME MINISTER: No, so I, you just don't have time. I'm a bit old fashioned. I like holding a newspaper, so I do do that, which sometimes amuses me in in the morning. But you can't either let things get into your head. Some things are designed to be provocative or to play with you, I think, particularly from some media outlets.
WATSON: What is your view, I mean, media is very fragmented. It's like, that's the phrase of the like, the modern era or whatever, but particularly the last year, and increasingly so. What is your view on media influence? Who do you think, do you still consider, you know, 730 on ABC, the front pages of the major newspapers. Do you still consider those the most influential as far as where you need to be with your messages? Or have you kind of changed your approach? Maybe we're in the process of witnessing that.
PRIME MINISTER: Media is changing, so that for some of the daily newspapers, they're so predictable. You know, there's less news and more opinion, which I think is problematic, and some of it is just a cheer squad for one side of politics, and so I think that makes it less influential.
KIMBALL: That's why we started The Squiz. It was a reaction to that, because I'm sick to death of reading opinion that is pretending to be news. So we provide a service that sort of cuts across all the top of that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it used to be the case, it will be obvious what I'm talking about here, but if something was on a splash in a major daily newspaper, if you did a press conference, you'd be asked about it, and it would lead the news that day. Now, often the journalists from that publication don't even follow it up because it's just more of the same. And so I think its influence has been reduced as a result of that. Less people are watching as well major current affairs shows like 730 you know, Lateline used to be a must watch for people.
WATSON: I'm so conscious that basically for 30 per cent of our audience are like, ‘what is Lateline.’
PRIME MINISTER: Exactly, it used to be on at 10:30 and you would have a serious, deep dive interview, often a debate. You now don't have that. 730 I think, is still a very serious show, but there's more diversity, but more as well, just noise. It is harder to cut through. And I think for journalists as well, I'm very sympathetic, like it's much tougher for them. They are under pressure to break news without finding out the facts.
WATSON: How do you cut through? What is your strategy coming into an election period?
PRIME MINISTER: Besides talking to you?
WATSON: Podcasts are part of the strategy. I’m really interested in you know, that conversation. I want to ask you about misinformation next, because that'll be part of it too. But like, what are you thinking about doing to actually reach people that are considering voting for you? Or not?
PRIME MINISTER: Well that’s part of it. We have to, and it is, as I said, I'm sympathetic with journalists. One of the things, I had a discussion with a someone in an editorial position recently where something was printed that just wasn't right, and their response was honest, which was that they were looking for clicks, so it didn't matter whether there was accuracy or not.
WATSON: They actually said?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, it's about clicks.
WATSON: Just admitting that? I’m sorry I’m astounded.
PRIME MINISTER: Honest at least. But you look at the headlines, for example, of ‘politicians, politician, allegedly commits atrocity,’ will get a headline, and it's someone from the other side of politics saying something about another MP or Minister or Shadow Minister, like it's noise, but it's written in a way that gets people to click on the story. Which is what they’re about.
KIMBALL: So let's talk about misinformation.
WATSON: Well, I think we have to at this point, right?
KIMBALL: Yeah, and I guess with that approach comes all of this wave of misinformation and disinformation. What's your advice to Australians who are trying to make sense of all of this?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's hard. We did try to do something about it, and that was something that was based upon legislation, a process that was foreshadowed by the former Government, by the Liberal Government, it wasn't something that we came to independently, but it got rejected in the Senate and won't be revisited.
WATSON: You're referring to the mis and disinformation bill at the end of last year. We've spoken to our audience quite extensively about that. So that's enough context.
PRIME MINISTER: And it is hard. One of the things we're very concerned about is artificial intelligence, and you will have seen memes that put words in people's mouths that aren't them saying it. That's scary for our democracy. And I'll give you one example, because it's so bizarre was someone said to me, ‘so you claim travel allowance and allowance, but you're living in, when you're in The Lodge or in Kirribilli House.’ And I said, ‘who told you that?’ ‘Oh, it's online,’ and it's just a complete fantasy.
WATSON: So, what are you most concerned about as Prime Minister? Are you most concerned about that aspect that, people not being educated enough to understand what they're seeing and then interpret it? Or is it actually like we're talking election interference and foreign interference in our elections? Like, what's the most concerning thing?
PRIME MINISTER: All of the above. Just democracy being undermined. I respect the right of people to vote whatever way they like, but I hope that it's on the basis of reality, of what the policies are, the alternative frameworks, whether it be myself or Peter Dutton or the Greens Political Party or an independent, whoever out there. That they're not voting according to something which simply is just not true.
KIMBALL: Honest information.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, absolutely.
KIMBALL: Are you worried about that in this election?
PRIME MINISTER: I’m absolutely worried about that in this election. And the AEC, certainly, the Australian Electoral Commission, are very worried about that as well. We have seen things that just are not true out there, and it's hard, it's a challenge, but it should be viewed in a context, I guess, to make it part of a broader discussion as well. I think we need consistently to have a discussion about technology, the way that it impacts on society, and how governments can either regulate or how we deal with that.
WATSON: And then you get into your free speech debate. Do you want to touch that debate during this election? Like, is that something you're keen to surface, or is it too difficult a conversation to have?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, one of the things that we've done, for example, is the ban on social media for under 16s. Now that is world leading, but I think it's absolutely necessary. I mean, I've sat down with the families who've lost their young ones, and a direct result of that has been their engagement with social media. We know there's an increase in mental health issues amongst young Australians, and we know as well, from talking to parents that they want their kids to be out there on the netball court or the tennis court or the swimming pool or the cricket oval, whatever, talking with each other as well, having that real social engagement.
WATSON: The Anxious Generation. Have you read it?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I haven’t.
WATSON: Jonathan Haidt. I mean, it's doing the rounds of my mother’s groups, and it's getting a lot of traction, this idea that, you know, kids need to be independent and outside and, you know, not on their devices.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, an example that has worked is banning phones in schools. It has worked. It's meant that kids, instead of sitting by themselves, focused on what's on their device. I mean, instead talking and engaging with each other and I think that's an important part to go back to. How do you counter some of the misinformation? The best way to rely upon it is face to face engagement with people.
WATSON: Do you know we have a media literacy program in schools for primary age kids that we built, that The Squiz built?
KIMBALL: And he’s got his checkbook with him.
WATSON: Obviously not going to hit you up for funds, we’d love for it to be government funded, of course, but our philosophy around this is actually high school is too late, it has to be primary aged.
PRIME MINISTER: I agree.
WATSON: And the education piece is super important.
PRIME MINISTER: Good on you.
WATSON: So whenever you're ready, we're ready to announce that it'll be available in every school.
KIMBALL: Minister Rowland’s all over it, you can sort it out with her that would be great.
WATSON: But it is something very close to our heart, and increasingly so, because actually it’s something we've accidentally fallen into in a lot of ways, just because teachers have taken this up in droves.
PRIME MINISTER: It’s a showstopper for parents, for teachers, it's what people are really concerned about. Even when my son, Nathan's 24 so he just got, just sort of got there, but it's got far worse.
WATSON: Over the course of your Prime Ministership, we and not in relation to your Prime Ministership, but we've been surveying our audience regularly on the issues that really matter to them. And over the last sort of three or four years, it's gone from a real concern about the climate, environment, health coming up out of the pandemic, and it's moved significantly to cost of living, of course, but, and we will talk about that in a bit, but global conflicts and war. Certainly, the sentiment from Squizzers is, ‘I feel really anxious about the world. I feel really anxious about what's going on in the world.’ Perhaps the number one job of the federal government is to keep Australia safe, secure, feeling safe and secure. What would you say to our audience that are feeling that way?
PRIME MINISTER: That I understand your concern, and we live in a world where there has been global conflict that we wouldn't have expected 20 years ago, the idea of a land war in Europe that has gone on and on and on now with the Russian invasion of Ukraine is something that was not only anticipated not to happen at all, but when it did happen, it was thought it would be over very quickly, and it's gone on and had an impact on people's lives with global inflation can be in part, traced to that conflict. The Middle East conflict, I think, has devastated people, people directly affected, be they members of the Jewish community or people of the Palestinian or Islamic community, but I think Australians in general, overwhelmingly, want two things. They want it to stop. They're aware that it's gone on for a long period of time, this conflict, they want it to stop. And secondly is they don't want conflict brought here as well. I think that causes anxiety, and that's one of the things about our multicultural nation, that it's a really important principle that we need to cherish and value and nurture, is that we don't bring conflict from overseas to Australia. We live in harmony here, is important.
WATSON: But I think the feeling would be, it is here.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WATSON: And we're talking to you on, I mean, we're talking to you on a morning where we've seen more, those attacks in Dover Heights, again. So, we've moved from it being something that's happening over there that we're worried about because we're engaged citizens in the world and we care about the world, to something that's right here now.
KIMBALL: And it feels quite different, doesn't it? What's happened in the last sort of 15 months or so, what's happened in the Middle East is really quite different in the way we've experienced it here.
PRIME MINISTER: It is and it has caused trauma here.
KIMBALL: So how do we heal? How do we move on from this really nasty chapter?
PRIME MINISTER: I think by continuing to not be a cheer squad for polarisation. One of the things my Government has attempted to navigate is a principal position, which is that to condemn the Hamas atrocities of October 7 and the taking of hostages and Hamas' ideology, but also to say that Israel has a right to defend itself, but how it defends itself matters as well.
WATSON: And I guess you're, I guess, equivocating on the issue in the sense that there is, there's two sides to every story. There's two sides to this story. You as Prime Minister, doing that isn't helping the fact that we're still seeing hate speech on both sides, on our streets.
PRIME MINISTER: We are and it needs, it needs to be stopped.
WATSON: How do you do that?
PRIME MINISTER: Calling it out, taking action against crimes and treating them as crimes, and we saw the first arrests under Operation Avalite that I established of the AFP, together with state police jurisdictions making sure that it's recognized that graffitiing a Nazi symbol on a synagogue is not the same as graffitiing ‘Free Assange’ on a wall of a suburb.
WATSON: Is it the same people doing that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's a hate crime, and it's one that is designed to create fear. And, you know, I called for, way back on October 8 or October 9, the Monday before the Opera House demonstration. I said that shouldn't go ahead, and it shouldn't have and it is, you know, it has been a difficult issue and a really difficult time. Antisemitism is evil, but it is deep rooted amongst some, and we've seen that exposed.
WATSON: I can see you like you are getting quite emotional about it, because I've seen you, you have been criticized for not taking a firmer position on this, and you've said like, this was deeply insulting to me personally, because I feel like I've spent my whole life, my whole career, arguing this is the case.
PRIME MINISTER: Because I have.
WATSON: I can see the emotion, but the problem for you is, if it doesn't, if it still goes on like this, would be front of mind, no doubt.
PRIME MINISTER: I don't think it is, it doesn't, it denies agency of people who are responsible for antisemistim, if it is used as a political weapon.
KIMBALL: Because they're not held responsible, you're held responsible.
PRIME MINISTER: It is an attempt to seek political advantage from that. Now, I'm someone who helped establish Students Against Racism a long time ago, last century, when I was a student. I'm someone who called out BDS, the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions campaign for what it was when my local council adopted and overturned that policy. I'm someone who has engaged in anti-racism my whole political life, and I've called out every act of antisemitism, as I have called out the acts which are racially based against others, including acts of Islamophobia.
WATSON: You also have, as Prime Minister, you know, people like the secretary of ASIO saying, ‘let's temper this.’ One of the problems here is, you know, having the debate very publicly about in a polarizing way that's actually going to flame the fire, I'm sure.
PRIME MINISTER: And Mike Burgess has been very clear, the Director General of ASIO that the temperature needs to be lowered, that people need to not try to look for partisan political points. I mean, the Greens Political Party had had virtually an occupation outside my electorate office in Marrickville for 24 hours a day, for months.
KIMBALL: Tough on your staff?
PRIME MINISTER: It’s incredibly tough and abusing my staff, importantly as well meaning that constituents requiring help on migration, on social security, on Medicare, couldn't get that assistance, were turned off. And it was a very aggressive demonstration, and Australia is not participants in this conflict, we are not engaged in killing people, which is what we're accused of doing. And I think that sort of opportunism, frankly, backfired. So Labor won an absolute majority on the Inner West Council in the elections, because people could see.
KIMBALL: The election of Donald Trump is a whole thing.
WATSON: This is coming out just after he is inaugurated.
KIMBALL: And a lot of our audience are puzzled by that. We've spent a lot of time talking to our people about what that all means, what the best journalism is on it, that you know, go and read and go and make up your own mind.
WATSON: There was a lot from our audience of like, how did Trump get elected?
KIMBALL: How does that work? Why do you think he was elected?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, look, that that's a matter of course for the American people. You'd expect me to say that, but clearly, we live in times where people are frustrated, times of economic change, and there's been a response to that. You need to make sure that people aren't left behind. That I think, the early discussions we had in this podcast about the fragmentation of media is a factor as well. And I think you had in the Democrats, I think if there was a mistake from a distance that they did in the campaign, they in the Harris campaign spoke about what the Biden administration had achieved with Kamala Harris, who I know and respect as Vice President had done, there wasn't enough about the offer. What next? One of the things that we have done as the Labor Party and as a government seeking a second term is very early on, we have put out policies that are about the next term. So big speeches, one in Adelaide about HECS debt and about free TAFE being permanent. Then in Brisbane last month, a major speech about childcare, three days guaranteed child care, getting rid of the activity test, and also child care infrastructure, in areas that don't have access, of a billion dollars. I'll give a major speech on the 24th of January at the National Press Club. And so I think those things matter. You've got to speak about our record, and I will, but also speak about, ‘okay, what's our agenda for a second term in building on those foundations.’
WATSON: The natural next question is the incumbency question, but I feel like you're going to be asked about a million times like, you know. And what I'm referring to, for people who don't know, is that, you know, incumbent governments across the world have been voted out.
KIMBALL: Off the back of that economic issue.
PRIME MINISTER: There have been long term governments, it must be said.
WATSON: I mean, look, you can watch any news they’ll talk about that a lot, but what we want to know is, Donald Trump, what do you think you have in common with him if you were going up to him, and which you will, and I know we know how these things work, because we've witnessed them. You have to do the small talk first. Yeah, what are you going to relate to him on a personal level? Are you a golfer is the first question?
KIMBALL: Does he like Souths? Does he like dogs?
PRIME MINISTER: As a golfer, I'm a terrific tennis player. I like a smaller stick rather than a big one. But our first discussion was very warm and extensive, and one of the things that we talked about was he's coming back. It's pretty amazing. You know, in 2013 I ran for Leader of the Labor Party. I wasn't successful against, I won the rank and file vote, didn't win the caucus component with Bill Shorten. I hung in there and I came back. So we talked a little bit about that as well. His resilience is extraordinary for him to come back. He clearly inspires loyalty from his supporters. I think I have that too, the fact that since 2019 I've been Leader for the Labor Party now for longer than Bill Shorten was for heading up to six years. If you look at the recent history in Australia that is significant.
WATSON: Prime Minister, before we started recording, we mentioned to you we were going to ask you about cost of living. I referred to it as cozzie livs, and you hadn't heard that phrase before.
PRIME MINISTER: I have not heard that before. Cozzie livs. I'm going to use it on the floor of the parliament.
KIMBALL: We’ll you’ve got it at the Press Club.
PRIME MINISTER: I’m not going to roll it out at the Press Club. Maybe in questions, but not in the speech, it’s far too serious at the National Press Club.
WATSON: What I wanted to ask you about is, again, just relating it back to who I know is listening and our specific audience. I'm a mum of two. Got another one on the way, as you can probably tell.
KIMBALL: She didn’t just have a big Christmas.
WATSON: You know, we do the juggle, like a lot of people. And the topic of conversation amongst our friendship groups and more broadly, amongst the Squiz audience, is that increasingly, it feels like for women and men and families, you don't have as much choice around what you would like to do as a family. So it feels like you're being pushed in the direction of, you send your kids to childcare early, you go back to work, you work hard. And rather than that being something that people choose to do. It feels increasingly and the conversation is increasingly about that's just what you have to do. So that's just one example, but I feel like this is probably can be applied more broadly, is that people feel that they have less choice. What do you say to that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we certainly acknowledge that there's pressure there. You've had global inflation so that, to put it in perspective, other nations have gone into recession. Other advanced economies, not all of them, but a number of them, have gone backwards. New Zealand, just next door, is currently in quite a deep recession. Other countries have had higher unemployment, just about all of the G7 today, the seven largest economies have higher unemployment than we do. And one of the things that we've tried to manage with cost of living, we know the key is getting inflation down. There's reasons for that, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the tale of COVID, has had an impact as well. We've managed to do that without throwing people on the scrap heap, without saying, ‘you're on your own.’ I said during the last election campaign, I said I wanted, ‘no one left behind and no one held back.’ What does that mean? No one left behind that we don't just say you're on your own, and no one held back, always having an eye on opportunity. I think Labor's a party of opportunity, and for giving people a crack at a better life.
WATSON: Prime Minister, your personal story is something that you've told time and time again. And we'll put a link to people's show notes to if you want to read about your upbringing and that beautiful story around your mum raising you as a single parent, housing commission, disability pension, it's a big part of who you are. Do you concede that perhaps some of that narrative is being lost? We're just looking at the evidence here. We, you know, looking at some of the research that's been done, saying that you might have lost touch with that part of you. I just want to give you a chance to respond to that, because I haven't actually heard you be able to do that yet, and that's more of a recent conversation. You know, the purchase of the home, where to people who are saying, ‘is he really the guy I thought he was?’ In that regard? What do you say?
PRIME MINISTER: What I say is that I have been really fortunate to meet someone, Jodie in life, and to now be engaged, to be married, and to we're going to spend our life together, and that's something I didn't expect. I had a difficult marriage breakup. That was a choice that Carmel made, my partner of 30 years. I thought we would spend the rest of our life together. She made a different decision. I respect that. So I didn't expect someone to come along and for me, to me, I wasn't looking for another long term partner, but Jodie and I have found each other, and that's fantastic. And we made a choice to buy a home together for down the track and sold another home. Not all decisions are about politics. Not all decisions do you put into a focus group. It's about us and our life together and I think people understand that. One of the things that I've done, and continue to do, and keep my feet on the ground as well, is I still am in contact with all my mates I grew up with, including around here, we're in Woolloomooloo. I went to St Mary's Cathedral here, just about 100 metres away, and it's great that I keep up with them. And there was a fantastic moment in my Prime Ministership that I will never forget. Is every year when parliament goes back, the first thing that's done the day before is a ceremony at the Australian War Memorial. And I was there, and I got this photo sent by Cherie, who's someone I grew up with in the council area in Camperdown. And she'd taken a photo from a distance of me, and I was like ‘where are you? Are you here?’ And Cherie and all of my mates, Wendy and Clayton, and these people with their partners, Donna, with their partners, had worked out I was going to be the first day as Prime Minister in the parliament, and they'd phoned, Clayton's gone on to be a wharfie in Fremantle, Cherie and Donna are still in Sydney, Wendy lives in Melbourne. They'd all come to Canberra without telling me, to arrive, because they will wanted to, one of theirs was getting to be the PM. And so that night, I had them all to dinner at The Lodge. So the night before I became PM, I was there with just these great people who I've continued to engage with and listen to. They cut to the chase, these people.
KIMBALL: I bet they do.
WATSON: Who’s your best mate? Is that going to put you in a tricky position?
PRIME MINISTER: I don’t want to alienate everyone who I don’t name.
KIMBALL: Jodie.
PRIME MINISTER: Jodie of course, and I’ve got to say, one of the great things too about having a 24 year old is we're mates, me and Nathan, like the relationship changes, and we're good mates. And I must say, he's got fantastic music tastes, which is really important.
WATSON: Final question is, we're coming up to Australia Day, really interested in what you think it means to be Australian, to be proud of this country. There is a conversation around being proud to be Australian, and I really want to hear from you. What is that to you?
PRIME MINISTER: I am so proud to be Australian because of the characteristics that we have. A country that benefits from being part of the oldest continuous culture on earth with First Nations people, but one where people have come from all over the world to make a better life for themselves and their family. And I think that harmony that we have, that unity, that sense of the Australian language itself, where we speak about fair dinkum means being straight. Fair go means equity. I think that we need to really value our success as a nation. I'm incredibly optimistic. I'm positive. I think we began this podcast with a bit of a debate about the left and the right and ideology. From my perspective, one of the things about being a progressive is that you have hope and faith in people and are optimistic, and you think that history, whilst it might go in bumps, goes forwards that as much as people will often romanticize the past. So I have on the Labor Party sometimes where people say, ‘well, the Labor Party is not what it used to be.’ And I go, ‘no, we're not.’ We don't support the White Australia Policy anymore. We do support First Nations people. We support gender equality as well.
WATSON: All our parties do now, the whole nation has come a long way. All our major parties, sorry.
PRIME MINISTER: Exactly, the nation has come a long way, and we should acknowledge that and treasure that as well. I think we are the greatest country on Earth, but I think we can be even better in the future, and there's nowhere that is more positioned either to benefit from the changes in the global economy, that shift to net zero, that will drive change over coming decades.
WATSON: Thanks for joining us.
KIMBALL: Thanks so much.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.