SYLVIA TABUA, HOST: Hello and welcome back to Radio 4MW to this special broadcast that we have today. And we have been waiting patiently for our Prime Minister to join us. So, this afternoon I'd like to welcome Prime Minister of Australia, the Honourable Anthony Albanese MP. And welcome, Prime Minister. It's a pleasure to have you here at radio 4MW today on lovely Waiben.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much. It's certainly a pleasure to be here. And I can assure you that TI is much warmer than Canberra. I'm enjoying the wonderful conversations, the very warm welcome that I've had here as well. And the dialogue, we had a terrific lunch as well with the young people dancing, and that cultural experience was just wonderful to see.
TABUA: So tell us Prime Minister, have you been to the Torres Strait before?
PRIME MINISTER: I have this is my fourth visit. I came and was a member of the committee that looked at greater autonomy for Torres Strait Islanders and reported in 1997. And I came as a part of the preparation and those public hearings. So I went to Mer, St. Paul's, York, Darnley, Saibai, Horn, TI as well as communities on the mainland like Bamaga and Seisia. I came back as well, on a couple of occasions as the Federal Minister for Transport. We looked at and funded an upgrade of the airport on Island at that time, I also looked at the time as I came here, with my maritime hat on as the person presiding over the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, looking at passage through the Torres Strait, and those issues, there was an AMSA vessel, of course, was operating at the time. So I've had a number of visits here. And so it's it's quite exciting, though to be back. It's very different coming back, of course, as the 31st Prime Minister of Australia.
TABUA: So tell us about your visit to the Torres Strait, I believe you wanted to talk about the Voice to Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right, it is really important that we get as much input as possible into the process leading up to a referendum to have an enshrined voice to Parliament in the Constitution. But also, of course, that would be a recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in our Constitution. The Constitution is the National Birth Certificate of Australia. And at the moment, it pretends that that history began in 1788. And of course, we should be very proud that we had the oldest continuous civilization on the planet, here in Australia. And Torres Strait Islanders are a very important part of that. And that's why we need to get that recognition of indigenous people but also do it in a way that indigenous people have generously asked for, which is what the voice represents. I put at the Garma festival out there a proposed question, but also a draft of what the constitutional change might look like to make it clear that it's about consultation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people about issues that affect their daily lives and affect them. So I think this is a really important thing that my government is very, very keen to advance. And, of course, everyone we met with today from the Torres Strait Regional Authority, but also from the council's were all very supportive of the Voice. I was very heartened by the response.
TABUA: Now since the Garma Festival, though, there's been a lot of reactions from enthusiastic support to requests for more detail to outright opposition. Some of the critics have been First Nations people for example, Senator Jacinta Price and the Greens have had a lot to say about the order of the Uluru Statement, preferencing Treaty first. Are you confident you can navigate your way through all of this and achieve a positive result?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I am confident that the Australian people will show the generosity that defines the Australian character. And what I see with the Uluru Statement from the Heart is a very generous and gracious offer, to advance reconciliation, it's a hand out asking for that hand to be joined in unity. And that's why it will be very important, of course, there will be different voices, and I respect the fact that people will have different views. You don't get constitutional change unanimously. But the thing about every major step that has been taken, whether you look at the 1967 referendum, or the Native Title legislation, or the apology to Stolen Generations, is that once that has occurred, it has benefited not just indigenous people, but benefited the whole nation. And people have looked back on it and gone well, that was a good idea why didn't it happen sooner. So similar with constitutional recognition, I believe. There's no one now who says oh, we shouldn't have apologised for the Stolen Generations or we shouldn't have Native Title or we shouldn't have had the 1967 referendum. Australia was was enhanced by that. And so there will be different views. There's a lot of detail out there. Of course, Marcia Langton and Tom Calma did a lot of work on the detail of what a Voice might look like. But that Voice, of course, would be subject to the legislation and subject to change over a period of time, because it would be subservient to the Parliament, it's not an attempt to create a third chamber or something that's above the Parliament. It's something that will continue to exist by being enshrined in the Constitution. But something that will change over a period of time, as well, no doubt, but will continue to be accountable to the Parliament.
TABUA: So Prime Minister, have you settled on a date of a possible referendum?
PRIME MINISTER: We haven't, one of the things I want to happen here and it's part of the reason for my visit, is I want this to be owned by the Australian people by Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians. So this isn't my idea or my thing that I have an ownership over, I want people to talk these issues through. And we're doing that having the conversation, having the conversation in our cities, our towns, our regions and our islands, about what it would mean. We'll also be reaching out, we want people in the Coalition or in the Greens Party and minor parties to come onboard for this. I'm pleased Malcolm Turnbull, this week change his mind, is now supportive of the change. I think over a period of time, I want to be inclusive, rather than prescriptive and say, This is what I want to happen and when I want it to happen. I want people to have that sense of ownership over it. So we'll have important discussions as well, particularly with Indigenous people. That's one of the things that we were doing today, myself and Linda Burney and Senator Nita Green, was sitting down with elected representatives through the TSRA and through local government here on Thursday Island where we are but from throughout the region, and getting their input as well and their thoughts.
TABUA: I'm speaking with the Australian Prime Minister, the Honourable Anthony Albanese. Prime Minister, some of the matters that concern us here in the Torres Strait are felt by other First Nations people elsewhere, including health, housing, but some are more specific, such as the threat of rising sea levels due to climate change, and the inflated cost of living due to remoteness. Can you talk about the difference you'd expect a Voice to mean for Torres Strait Islanders both here and on the mainland. And as you're aware, the majority of Torres Strait Islanders live on the mainland.
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things that a Voice will need to do as well as to make sure that in its structures that minorities within the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities are also represented, have their voice heard. So on issues like climate change, we know that the Torres Strait Island will be more impacted. Many of them of course are low lying. I visited a number of them that are susceptible, particularly the ones in the middle, that are coral based, very low lying and are susceptible to rising sea levels. So that will be very important. The other issue in terms of making sure that people are heard is that people will have a diversity of issues facing them. Now, in different parts of Australia, housing is an acute issue here, of course, on the islands themselves space is an issue. There's even a difference between here and on the peninsula, around Cape York, from communities there, there's more space available, but there are other challenges as well. So a Voice will be able to express views and have that input for issues that are of concern for Indigenous people. And one of the things we know is that for 121 years, decisions have been made in Canberra. With the best of intentions, some of those have not gone as well as they might have. I think there's a common thread that where Indigenous people have been consulted directly on matters that affect them, they have been the programmes that have been most successful. You look at areas like Indigenous Rangers, that has been very successful in providing productive employment, making a positive difference to the natural environment, making a positive difference to economic activity as well. And that's because there's that sense of ownership there. It's from the bottom up, if you like. That is the sort of issue that says to me, of why I think the Voice will be successful, in closing the gap in health, education, housing, life expectancy, is that if you give people that sense of ownership over their lives, then you will get far better outcomes than if people are sitting in an office building in Canberra, making decisions on behalf of Communities so far away without that input and without that advice.
TABUA: Prime Minister, what level of detail do you think will be necessary before going to a referendum?
PRIME MINISTER: There'll be more detail about the structure of the Voice, what it might look like and in some ways, the structure of course, mightn't be the same, that's one of the things that Marcia Langton and Tom Calma have considered. They've considered the need for different gender representation of men and women, but also for remote communities to ensure that they're represented as well. So the structures might be different in how they're elected or appointed to a body to channel through. They envisaged a committee of around about 20 people. But that's up for discussion. The other thing is, is that because it will be legislated the details, then the legislation can be amended if something isn't working, or there's an idea of improvement. This is going to be an exercise that is aimed at best practice and then continually is gotten better. It would be just with every other piece of legislation before the Parliament, it changes over a period of time we don't have a tax system or environmental laws or industrial relations laws that never change, they get amended through and so that the structures will be important. But I think that the big debate that has to be won, from my perspective in order to get a successful outcome on The Voice, is that we need to win the debate that says it's not either a Voice and constitutional change or practical difference to close the gap. The Voice and constitutional change and recognition and giving people respect is a step on the path to closing the gap as well. The two things are linked, not just how Indigenous people are seen and how they see themselves, but also the way that Australia is seen as a nation by the world will be uplifted. If we catch up frankly, with where most of the world have gone, there's considerable more advancement on these issues in New Zealand and Canada and a range of countries that have dealt with the issue of reconciliation between First Nations people and those who have arrived later on.
TABUA: Prime Minister on the face of it, someone asking to have a say in matters that affect them would seem like a reasonable ask, why do you think some people are losing their minds about it? Like having, you know, earlier suggestions that a voice would be a third chamber, especially from a former Prime Minister, and others have they've been at the core of that?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, it I think change is often difficult for people. And it's very easy to always promote fear rather than hope. It's easier sometimes to be negative than positive and optimistic. But that's a challenge for us to meet, it's a challenge I'm prepared to take up and my party and my government are prepared to take up. The good news that I want to convey is that in the discussions I've had, with church leaders, across the spectrum of churches, and different faiths, or business leaders. I have not met a senior business leader in this country who is not supportive of the Voice and of constitutional recognition. The trade union movement, very keen to get out there and campaign as well. Non-government organisations, the charitable sector, sporting organisations, I've had discussions with the AFL, and the National Rugby League, and the Netball Association, and others, for example, will all be out there campaigning for a positive yes vote, because it is just good manners, as you said, it is good manners to be raised. I was raised by a single mum, very in the Catholic tradition, which is if you're going to have to undertake some activity that impacts on someone else, you ask them first, that's just polite. And that's what we do in Australia. And during the pandemic, we saw that on a very big scale, where people made sacrifices themselves in order to look after the health of people who they didn't know and they might never meet, as well as of course, looking after their family and their neighbours and their local community. And it's that spirit, I think that gives me a great deal of optimism that we can achieve this change.
TABUA: I'm speaking with Australian Prime Minister, the Honourable Anthony Albanese. Prime Minister, how would the establishment of a Voice impact upon First Nations sovereignty?
PRIME MINISTER: It wouldn't impact, in terms of those issues were dealt with of course, here in the Torres Strait. Historically, the Mabo decision was in recognising that terra nullius was a fiction. Those issues through Native Title being worked through very successfully to the benefit of Indigenous Australians, but also to the benefit of the wider Australian economy and businesses and employment. So I think that very clearly, it wouldn't have an impact. There's a range of issues being raised where the Voice to Parliament wouldn't change. It wouldn't it won't change the fact that we have a House of Representatives and a Senate. It won't change some of the legal obligations, it won't mean, reparations, for example, was something I was asked about today. It won't mean that. This is a very simple and generous and gracious offer which was built up over many years of consultation across First Nations people who met at Uluru in 2017 and came up with such poetic and meaningful words. I don't think there's been a document in this country that is so small in terms of the number of words that has so much meaning attached to it, and so much passion and a lot of thought went into it. It's remarkable. Often when you have things done by a committee, you don't get a coherence, but it's a coherent statement.
TABUA: So, Prime Minister, what have you been hearing from leaders and others here in the Torres Strait today?
PRIME MINISTER: They're very supportive. But we've also had a range of other discussions including about CDP, about employment. And there again, the theme that we've heard, myself and Linda Burney and Nita Green is that they want employment that's real and they want employment that's controlled locally, the input not just for the sake of it. One that actually makes a difference to people's lives, like the CDP used to in terms of providing training and skills and a real job, is what people want. So that's been an issue. The issue of governance arrangements, financing, access to fishing, there's a whole range of issues, of course, have been raised, as you would expect, but it's been incredibly positive, I have to say, and at lunchtime, getting the opportunity to see those young people was just fantastic and talking to their teachers, about the successes that are coming through from the next generation.
TABUA: Now Queensland is pushing on with a state based treaty process. Can you explain how the State and Territory approaches and the timing of them interact with what the Federal Government is planning?
PRIME MINISTER: It's all very positive. The Uluru Statement from the Heart, speaks about Voice, Truth, Treaty. So the State's undertaking in Queensland made a big step this week, the process of advancing treaty. The truth telling process through a Makarrata Commission will of course feed into that federally as well, as some of the states have advanced some of that process as well. But I see a Voice as being very critical to have that input, as these issues advance of treaty making, of course treaty making isn't one size fits all. There are different circumstances across the country. So I see it all as being very positive. Quite often we look back at the past and romanticise a bit as well. But you know, my party has made enormous steps forward. We have now Linda Burney, the first Indigenous woman Minister, in the Cabinet, Pat Dodson there as the Special Envoy for the Uluru Statement from the Heart. We have Malarndirri McCarthy, also serving as a front bench member in Government. We have new members coming through. Jana Stewart in Victoria has just been elected to the Senate. We have across the board, there's been 11 now, Indigenous people in the Parliament. When I was first elected to the Parliament, there weren't any. And so that's a really positive thing going forward.
TABUA: Now we have the TSRA here in the region, do you think this level of current autonomy will be affected with this new plan?
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things about the TSRA is that it now provides a bit of a model in that you have a body that has representatives from different communities. It gets together and advocates is a voice to State and Federal Parliament. So it shows that you can get improvements, that you can have a functioning organisation that functions well, and that is able to speak up on issues including, of course, the meeting that we had this morning.
TABUA: Prime Minister what would be the impact if a referendum is successful? And what if it wasn't? What would either result do and say about the nation and the relationship with First Nations moving forward?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm just very hopeful that it will be positive. And I think it would say that we're more mature as a nation. That's why would be a positive moment for Australia's development. You know, we need to be truthful about our history and the the mistreatment that occurred for, you know and continues, if you look at indigenous disadvantage, some of that is structural, which is there. We need to acknowledge that as a step, in order to then move forward. It's not to do an issue of guilt or finger pointing, but how do we how do we do better. The whole country is strengthened if everyone has an opportunity in life to better themselves. And if everyone's lifted up, that's a way that you build national unity. So I think it is an opportunity for us to unite the nation and to advance and to say to the world, we're being positive. I'm hopeful that we will be successful. If it isn't successful, you've got to respect of course, outcomes. And when you have a democratic process, you have to respect that. But it won't, it won't end the process. This is unfinished business. Until we recognise Indigenous people in our Constitution, it's not complete, in my very strong view.
TABUA: Prime Minister, is there anything else you would like to say before we finish off today?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's been lovely to be here and to talk with you. I just wanted to say that the welcome that we received from the airport when we arrived on Horn Island, but here on TI as well, and throughout the day, has been really heartwarming. It's been lovely to talk with people, to listen importantly, and I look forward to further engagement. So Minister Burney is coming back for three days in December, and we'll continue to have some discussions after this interview with the business community this evening and then some further discussions tomorrow morning. But it's been a wonderful visit. And I'm very jealous of the beautiful part of the world where you live. It's a majestic place. There's no question about that.
TABUA: Australian Prime Minister, the Honourable Anthony Albanese, thank you for your time today and enjoy the rest of your stay and hope you get to eat a lot of island food while you're here.
PRIME MINISTER: We had a very good lunch, I've got to say. So that will probably do me for today.
TABUA: You'll have to go jogging on the waterfront or go for a walk.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you very much.
TABUA: Thank you for your time today.