CLENNELL: We've seen this report that $828 million worth of industry grants was signed off while Scott Morrison was acting as Industry Minister. What can you tell us about this? I noticed his spokesman saying he could have done this even if he hadn't sworn himself in as Industry Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: What we saw here is another element of the concentration of power in the hands of the former Prime Minister. The former Prime Minister made himself the final arbiter of decision making over the Modern Manufacturing grants and over $800 million was approved by the Prime Minister rather than by the Industry Minister. Of course we know now that at the time Scott Morrison was also the Industry Minister at the time that he signed off, but he signed off as the Prime Minister on these grants, rather than leaving it in the hands of the minister, which would be the normal process.
CLENNELL: Have you seen or heard of any other examples that your government's found of him using the power from swearing himself into these other portfolios?
PRIME MINISTER: We're still awaiting further advice of course, and tomorrow I'll receive the advice from the Solicitor General. But of course we know that during the week, Scott Morrison said in a radio interview that he wasn't aware of any additional portfolios that he'd been put in charge of. We know that that didn't include Treasury and Home Affairs that he simply neglected to remember. I find the whole exercise quite extraordinary, and we'll wait and see what further information comes out.
CLENNELL: Do you think you'd be looking to unpick any of these industry grants?
PRIME MINISTER: They'll be viewed on their merits of course. The Industry Department will honour all contracts that have been entered into. There are a range of these programs that were announced but not contracted, including during the election campaign, and the department is examining the merits of them. Those decisions will be made very shortly after advice from the department. We want to make sure that proper process takes place here and what we've seen with the former government is that the process was just thrown out the window. The Westminster traditions were trashed, proper parliamentary processes were ignored, and people were kept in the dark from this shadow government that was operating.
CLENNELL: We know in 2020 it was the height of the pandemic when he made his decisions around Health and then Finance, but do you have any inkling or any sort of thought as to why, a year later, the former Prime Minister swore himself into other portfolios? Have you turned your mind to what possible reason there could be for that?
PRIME MINISTER: It's beyond my comprehension how this could occur, not only how it actually eventuated but even how would you even think of doing such a measure. As Prime Minister, I'm very conscious of the very great power that I have. There's a responsibility with that to ensure that it is dealt with appropriately. We have a Westminster system of cabinet government. That essentially means that the Prime Minister is the first amongst equals and it relies upon conventions. I haven't seen yet a suggestion that anything illegal has happened but what is very clear is that conventions have been overturned completely and ignored, and the Westminster system of our democracy has been undermined by the decisions that were made by the former Prime Minister.
CLENNELL: Just on the legality, because you mentioned it. I mean, from that, it sounds like it's at least possible to you the Solicitor General will come back and say, look, it's legal. If he finds its legal, will you consider a fuller inquiry? Or what will be your action then? Or will you just leave it at that point?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going to pre-empt the advice that we receive, but very clearly there's a need for proper scrutiny of what occurred here. This was an undermining of our parliamentary democracy and what the Solicitor General will advise on is of course the legal issues. There's separate questions about the functioning of our democracy, about conventions and whether any conventions have been overturned, and whether there's a need for any reforms required to ensure that something like this can never happen again.
CLENNELL: So there could be a further inquiry or further reforms out of this so it can't happen again?
PRIME MINISTER: That's correct. We'll examine all of those issues after we receive the Solicitor General's advice. I am running a proper cabinet government, that has proper processes, and we'll give full consideration to it.
CLENNELL: Could there be ramifications for the PEP 11 decision out of this?
PRIME MINISTER: I think that's a legal question potentially, that I don't intend to go into given that there are matters before the courts as we speak.
CLENNELL: When asked about this last week, you were asked whether there would be a broader Royal Commission into COVID. You signalled there would be - that is the response to COVID. I'm wondering when you were thinking of calling that and would that contain examination of the practices of state and federal governments during the pandemic or just the federal government?
PRIME MINISTER: Clearly, you'd need to look at the response of all governments. Primarily, it would be about the federal government, that's what we have responsibility for. But the interaction between the different levels of government of course were critical to the response to the COVID pandemic. The response of various government agencies, how it operated, the different jurisdictions. And it exposed some of the issues with our federation, it can often be quite difficult with overlapping responsibilities. Quite clearly, from Opposition, I said that I couldn't envisage a circumstance where after you had a once in a century global pandemic and an extraordinary response with the largest economic stimulus that we've ever seen at any time in Australia, that you would just move on and not have an examination of what went well, how things could be improved, and what lessons could be learnt from it. Upon coming to government of course we've been dealing with another wave of COVID, that has been the priority, getting through that, but my government will give consideration to an appropriate form of analysis going forward at some time. I made that clear from Opposition and I repeat it again today.
CLENNELL: Could it be a year away before you announce some form of Royal Commission?
PRIME MINISTER: I would have thought that you'd want to do something as soon as practicable, but we've been dealing with the immediate responses. At the first National Cabinet meeting that I chaired, we agreed, for example, to increase the additional health spending from the Commonwealth for another three months, that was at a cost of around about $900 million dollars. We see the strengthening of Medicare as being critical for the health care system. During the pandemic, there are lessons to be learned there, there are lessons to be learnt as well about how it interacted with our pharmacies, for example. We were very late in involving the pharmacies in the distribution of support and perhaps that is one of the lessons that could be examined as well. How the healthcare system as a whole interacts, how that coordination occurs, just to make sure that if there is a future pandemic or other national crisis based upon international events, we're better prepared, and that we respond appropriately. It's one of the reasons why we're setting up an Australian Centre for Disease Control, for example.
CLENNELL: Sure. On to another topic now, we've seen inflation hit 10% in the UK. Do you think it could get that bad here?
PRIME MINISTER: The advice that we've received, that's been publicly stated by the Treasury Department and also by the Reserve Bank, is that it won't hit that high. It's expected to peak later this year and then fall, and I certainly hope that's the case. One of the priorities of the Government is to take pressure off inflation. That will be one of the issues that will be debated at the Jobs and Skills Summit when we meet in a couple of weeks time, bringing together business, unions and community based organizations, NGOs - all focused on full employment, focused on boosting productivity, focussed on lifting wages but also lifting profits in a way that doesn't put pressure on inflation. The key to that of course is that productivity agenda.
CLENNELL: I'll put you on the spot a bit here. What are the three biggest challenges that you feel you face as PM this term?
PRIME MINISTER: The economy, of course, is always front and centre, because if you don't get the economic outcomes right it's more difficult to achieve your social or environmental agendas. There are pressures from international quarters in some cases. The inflationary pressure is coming in part as a result of what is happening globally, including the Russian invasion of Ukraine. So that is a pressure. The second of course is the strategic competition in our region. With China being more forward-leaning, that will continue to be something that we are focused on in the region. The third pressure which is there goes to, very much related to, the first - general cost of living pressures, how we take pressure off people and there are a range of ways that exhibits itself - housing costs, child care costs, health care costs, all of those measures - and that's why the position that we took to the election we're determined to implement. To make child care cheaper, to take pressure off pharmaceuticals, to take pressure off health care costs, to deliver on housing policy across the board, and making it easier for people to get into homeownership through the various programs that we have, but also investing in social and emergency housing as well.
CLENNELL: When do you think the Voice referendum will be and how do you feel about the prospects of its success?
PRIME MINISTER: I certainly hope that it is this term, that is the Government's intention. What I want to do though is to maximise the opportunity of success. I deliberately am not being overly prescriptive here, because I want people to have that sense of ownership. I don't want this to be our proposition or my proposition, so we're out there consulting Indigenous Australians. I was in the Torres Strait this week. It will be an element of discussion on the sidelines of the Jobs and Skills Summit in a fortnight. I've been engaging with business and churches. It's also important, I believe, to get as wider possible support across the parliament as can be achieved and I've had constructive discussions with Peter Dutton, with Adam Bandt, with other crossbench members as well, about the importance of this going forward. I certainly think that there is momentum there. I believe if we don't get on with it during this term, that momentum can be lost. It was way back in 2017 that the Uluru Statement came forward. That's five years ago.
CLENNELL: Do you think you can get Peter Dutton over the line here?
PRIME MINISTER: It's not a matter of me getting him over the line, I would ask that he consider what's been put forward. When we first discussed this issue he indicated to me that he wasn't even, it wasn't clear, what the question might look like. That is one of the motivations that I had for going to Garma and proposing the draft question, which is out there for discussion, as well as what the constitutional change would look like. When it comes clear, there are just two things really being considered here. One is recognising Indigenous Australians in our Constitution, in our national birth certificate. That is important. And secondly then, is making sure that we have consultation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples when matters affect them. It's not usurping of the parliament, at all, and that is very clear.
CLENNELL: If you were to sell it though, how will it change outcomes for Aboriginal people in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: You will get better outcomes when Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have a sense of ownership over decisions which are being made, when they're properly consulted. If you want to improve housing, health and education outcomes, as well as close the gap on life expectancy, don't make those decisions in Canberra in isolation from asking the people who will be directly impacted by those decisions.
CLENNELL: So far, the Government's got what I would call a flurry of consultation papers and reviews underway. Is there a danger in this because it takes a while for those reviews to come back? Are they about building a case for reform? Why summits? Why reviews? Why this process at the moment?
PRIME MINISTER: We want to be an inclusive government and we made that very clear during the election campaign. We want to bring Australians with us on the journey of change. But it hasn't stopped us introducing legislation, for example, on our emissions target of a 43% reduction by 2030, and on that framework has already gone through the House of Representatives. We've already introduced legislation for 10 days paid domestic and family violence leave, for the creation of Jobs and Skills Australia, for a range of our program and our agenda. So our task is to get on with that agenda, pass that legislation, which we are doing. But secondly, also to set Australia up for what are the next lot of reforms being done, how are people included in that process going forward. And I think that's a positive thing, I think that's a strength. Through collaboration, you'll get better outcomes. So I'm very hopeful, for example, at the Jobs and Skills Summit, that we can get agreement between employers and unions about their common interests. In order to do that, you've got to get people around the room and to make those decisions in the common interest, which is there.
CLENNELL: In saying that, it sounds like you're after something like the prices and incomes accord that Bob Hawke produced, is that what you're hoping for out of this Summit?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we're not as ambitious as that, that was the right policy for the right time. But what we are interested in is making sure that we can have improvements in enterprise bargaining, that we can focus there on productivity, and we can focus on ways in which business and unions come together.
CLENNELL: All right, just a couple of questions to go. The electric cars is one of the discussion papers. Do you expect some time in the 2030s for the sale of new petrol-run cars in Australia to end?
PRIME MINISTER: That will be decisions made by the companies involved, but what we know is that all the research isn't going into internal combustion engines it is going into electric vehicles and low emissions vehicles. That is what the Japanese, the European, the American suppliers are all doing.
CLENNELL: I want to ask quickly about a federal ICAC. You had a crack in the House at one point at Angus Taylor, saying he'd be looked at by other bodies. What do you think he's on the hook for? And would it look at things like pork-barrelling or would it look at just personal corruption, personal enrichment, if you like?
PRIME MINISTER: I think that a national anti-corruption commission should look at serious and systemic corruption and it shouldn't be directed by politicians, including by the Prime Minister, as to what it looks at. It should be independent of political interference.
CLENNELL: Now President Xi and President Putin have indicated they are going to attend the G20 at the end of the year. Does that make you look at that forum with some trepidation and are you considering a trip to America before then?
PRIME MINISTER: I will be attending the G20 and that's important. It's an important event for our friends in Indonesia to be hosting and I made that very clear. I don't believe that we should allow such an important international institution to be undermined. Just as, you might recall, Vladimir Putin attended here in Australia when we hosted. I think that we'll wait and see what actually occurs and who attends that summit, but certainly I've made it clear that Australia will be attending. There's a range of important events as well, including the East Asia Summit, that will be taking place around about that time. We haven't made a final decision about a visit to the United States. I have been invited by President Biden but we'll work that through and at some stage in the future that will occur, whether it's this year or next year. Next year, President Biden, I'd expect, will be in Australia along with Prime Minister Kishida and Prime Minister Modi for the Quad leaders meeting that Australia will be hosting next year.
CLENNELL: And just finally, it's the first time I've interviewed you since the election - hopefully we can do it again - people have seen a quite confident Prime Minister since you were elected. In the campaign you had a few moments - including with me and the unemployment rate - did you have what's in sporting terms called the yips during the campaign?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not a commentator, Andrew. We won the campaign. We had three debates and I think I won all three of the debates with Scott Morrison. We were focused on getting to 76 seats and we exceeded that with 77, and I think it was a very successful campaign. But it was a campaign where during it I said I was focused on two dates. One was May 21, but the second was the election in 2025. And by that I meant that I had a very clear view about what a first term agenda for the incoming Labour Government would be if we're successful, and that's what I'm now setting about implementing. I did have a clear idea of what I wanted to do in government and we're doing just that.
CLENNELL: Prime Minister, thanks so much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Andrew.